Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Vintage at sport law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport. This episode, we have a team member joining us to lead the discussion on diversity and inclusion. We're so excited to have Mel Knox, who's a lawyer at sport law and a former soccer player for the Panama women's national team. Mel has spent time in Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean supporting human rights development. She has a passion for fostering environments of inclusion, collaboration, and togetherness. I'll invite Mel to speak more about her vision in a moment. But before we do, Steve, what's coming across your desk this week?
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Things always come in threes, which makes me think that we should talk about it on the podcast. So just over the last two weeks, I think I've received three phone calls about how to remove a director from a board. And each time that I've had this conversation, it's not because the individual doesn't show up, isn't supposed to necessarily do what they're supposed to be doing. It's more because that person's values or conduct doesn't align with the organizations, and the rest of the board is having a tough time dealing with this individual. So the removal of a director, usually we first and foremost ask them to resign if they choose not to resign. Most legislation across the country would require a special meeting of the members to remove the director. In short, members elect and put directors in, but members vote to vote them out. So members put them in, members take them out. But I really didn't want to talk about how to remove a director from a legal perspective, but more on the proactive side of what can we do to make sure that directors will make decisions in the best interest of the organization? Their values, their personalities fit within the culture of the organization. And that's really what we see a lot of the work being done by a nominations committee to recruit people, to review their skills and their experience, and really, probably most importantly, do their personality and conduct and values align with the organization. I know something that you and I do, Dina. When we look at hiring people at sport law is first and foremost, do their values and personalities align with that of the organizations? And then we look to see if they have a service that can help the sport community but I just want to reiterate the importance of screening, interviewing, spending some time before we just accept. I understand the very few people who are willing to be directors, but maybe you're better off not having somebody in that role than having somebody who doesn't align with your organization's vision and values. How about you, Dina? What's new?
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Well, I'm so grateful, Steve, that, you know, the way in which you're sharing this, I think will be so helpful for people. And it reminds me of one of my sport coaches, you know, always said, begin with the end in mind.
What's the end game for you in terms of sport? Is it a tool? Is it a means? Is it an end? And so I'm really grateful that, you know, when we are guided by our values, anything's possible. And I think that that's a really beautiful underpinning for the conversation we're going to have today about creating, creating cultures of belonging. So what's coming across my desk? Well, interestingly enough, because it's dominating everything right now, I have a twelve page paper due for my inclusion, diversity and social justice course at university. You know, this never ending program that I'm in for, thanatology, the study of death and loss. And what I am beholden to is this incredible kind of a new lens in which I'm seeing the world because of this course. And I think I shared. I came to this course, Steve and Mel, thinking, how much am I really going to learn? Like, I've been immersing myself in, you know, white privilege and systems of inclusion and exclusion, looking at policies and procedures and cultures of belonging. So how much could I learn? Boy, am I, like, discovering all kinds of things. So in this class, we're taking things like, you know, disenfranchised grief, colonialism, racism.
We're looking at the social rules of grieving. We're looking at homelessness and peoples with disabilities and how they connect with grief and loss. So when we're thinking today about creating bridges of belonging where people feel seen, heard, and valued, I think I'll probably be tapping into much of what I'm learning in this course. And maybe before we connect to you, Mel Audra Lorde is a black, you know, she's passed now, but she's a black feminist, poet, lesbian mom. This is all the intersectional identities that she brought to her world in the seventies when she was fighting against systems of oppression. And here's her quote. She says, it's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences.
Mel, from Audra Lord's beautiful heart to yours, welcome. And we want to know a lot more about you, but what's coming across your desk?
[00:05:58] Speaker C: Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me. And it's hard to follow that quote, really. What's coming across my desk these days is probably sort of more of the same. I mean, working a lot on advancing inclusion and work doing inclusive practices with sport organizations. So it might be reactive. A sport organization might reach out to me and say, hey, this incident happened. We're looking for some guidance on how we go about navigating it or what should we do? And then more proactive work, just organization, saying we don't really know where we're at right now.
Where should we be looking? What should we be doing in terms of we want to advance inclusion. We want to be a diverse organization, a diverse sport, but how do we get there? So a lot of conversations.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I can feel that. And it's, there's a, there's an intentionality that you're speaking to now, and sometimes they're coming to you, knock, knock, knock. We messed up. Can you help us? You know, right these wrongs and more, I think more and more we're getting people, because of what Steve, you said around now, a values orientation and really wanting now to double down on their efforts to right past wrongs, but also to be leaders in this space. So it's really great to have you here. And I think one of the things that we want to unpack for our listeners is inclusive language. And maybe we'll dabble in a little bit of theory so that our listeners can better understand all of this kind of what's newer language for, maybe for sport that's going to foster and create these spaces of belonging.
I want to talk a little bit about intersectionality, Mel, and your experience of how you go about creating an awareness for people as they understand that beyond maybe the color of our skins, we have identities and life experiences that may or may not be evident and that intersectionality may create more opportunities or oppression for people. And so I'm just curious if maybe you can speak a little bit more about this crucial concept as we start to dance in the belonging waters today.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I find with some terms, especially sort of the bigger they are, the more complex they seem, people tend to want to run away from them because it seems a bit intimidating. So oftentimes when I talk about intersectionality about or having dialogue with others about it, I first think about identity, and I just talk about identity. Everybody as individuals, we are multidimensional. There's so much about us that makes us who we are. So we try to have conversations that are just very simple about what makes you you. And we can talk about sort of those fundamental core aspects of or characteristics that make us what we are. Our gender, our race, our ethnicity, our religion, our various abilities or physical or cognitive impairments. Just those things. But then, broader than that, what are some things that aren't necessarily on the surface, that people can't see without really getting to know us first to understand? So those secondary dimensions of diversity, like our education, our marital status, our geography of necessarily where we live, those aren't things that are inherent. It's not something we're born with. But through our life experiences, we also develop, right? So when I talk about intersectionality, I first like to talk about identity. I find the term is. It's used a lot more often these days. I think over the past few years, people are more familiar with it. It has been around since, I guess, the 1980s.
The term was originally coined by a american lawyer and civil rights advocate, Kimberly Crenshaw. And when she was first talking about intersectionality, she used it to describe the unique experience of black women in society and the intersecting identities of being black, but then also being a woman. And how is that experience different from a black man or a white woman, for example? So when we think about intersectionality, we think about, what are the different identities that we have? Do we belong to different social identity groups? And what is sort of understood is that the more social identity groups that we identify with or that we belong to of groups that have been historically marginalized in society, we might, or those individuals might experience multiple forms of discrimination because of those intersecting identities.
How these different aspects of ourselves intersect can influence our experience in society. And I think that the whole point of talking about intersectionality is to recognize that a person may experience unique challenges or advantages depending on those intersecting identities. And really, I think when we want to talk about intersectionality, it's really to try to add nuance to our understanding of how people are treated in society. That I know we like things simple, but life is obviously not simple. And so intersectionality just tries to describe a bit more that we are more than just the sum of our parts. And in what way will that influence how we experience society?
[00:12:03] Speaker A: William Mel. I'm wondering how you can apply that definition and tie it back to some of our key listeners being sport leaders, to say, does that translate into understanding potential barriers that exist in sport? What might they be?
And how would a sport organization even start to make changes, to try and break down those barriers?
[00:12:29] Speaker C: And that's the challenge for sure. I mean, I think if we recognize that things aren't as easy as they seem, we to probably don't want to fall into just making assumptions about what we think a particular group might need. And so I think a place to start is for organizations and sport leaders to engage in inquiry, to be curious, to connect with those that are accessing their sport or participating in the sport and have conversations and understand what are, what has your experience been like? What are the barriers that you might face? So that might be a place to start?
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah, Steve, I was thinking of the work we do around using this work culture index where we ask people different questions to understand their lived experience. And what I love about what you're sharing, Mel, is sometimes we want to generalize, as you were saying earlier, we want to elevate everything to maybe binary constructs. You're either female or you're male, you're able bodied or you have a disability. And so these ways of holding people and not distinguishing some of the subtleties is actually, that's part of the issue. Right. Because the people that haven't been othered tend to maybe have the privilege to hold these worldviews that are contributing to mainstream sport issues, for instance. So I love that you're bringing in this teaching around. If we allow that not all women, for instance, are going to have the same experience, and we normalize that, it will inform then how we go about and ask different people about their lived experience. And from there, we can better put in place programs, policies, procedures that speak to the different, unique, lived experience of the people we're here to serve.
[00:14:39] Speaker C: Absolutely. I find that if we're not engaging in dialogue, we can't learn from one another. And so even when organizations are asking questions around their duty to accommodate, to accommodate various participants, we don't suggest that they automatically assume that, okay, if there's a participant that's autistic, oh, that must mean that they automatically need this type of solution. Each individual has to be assessed on their own. And so regardless of what we think we might know about an individual, we have to engage in that inquiry to actually, again, make it specific, make it individualized. How do we better understand this particular participant? How is it that you want to participate?
[00:15:28] Speaker A: When I get faced questions like that, Mel, with respect to accommodation or potential human rights, you know, human rights matter, my advice always is, stop, don't say anything quick witted. And assess and ask exactly as you've alluded to. I'm wondering your thoughts on if you get a phone call or an email that says, hi, I'm ABC sport organization, and they would like to embed Dei solutions into their policies, into their values, into their culture. Is there a tangible way of doing that?
[00:16:04] Speaker C: Well, before we get to the tangible, I might try to the abstract. I might first do the broader picture of really trying to understand their why? Because I really do find that that makes a difference in terms of how effective they're going to be. What is motivating them for why they're reaching out to do a particular program or to write a particular policy?
If it feels very well, we just need to sort of check the box and get this and this done. Yes, there's ways to approach that, but ultimately, what's your motivation? And what, at the end of the day, when you look at the end, although there is no end, it's a journey, not a destination in advancing Dei, but what is the motivation and what are they actually looking to achieve? So having that kind of broader conversation about what is important to you, why do you care about inclusion? What is it that is driving you, that helps them understand their motivation for at least making sure that their efforts are going to be sustained and not just a one and done and. And we move on. It's like how do you lean in and dig in and just do the work? Because that's the thing, is everything takes effort, anything meaningful anyway.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Trey, you mentioned check the box, Mel, and we hear that quite often when we talk about this particular area. What's the difference between checking the box and making change, making significant change?
[00:17:39] Speaker C: I think it's the experience.
I think you can have a list of tasks to achieve and say, okay, yes, we've done that, but have you checked in to those that are on the receiving end of whatever decisions you're making as an organization? And does it actually feel that it resonates with those that are subject to the policies or that are put through a process?
I think it's the acknowledgement and the valuing people's participation and contributions. It sometimes comes down to that subjective feeling for experience. I find.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: As I was listening, I know sometimes people come to us because they have to catch up on their policies or an issue has happened. And however well intentioned they are, often in the attempt to right wrongs, they can without the input and the contribution of the people that we are harming. It's going to feel performative, like you're just doing this because the funders are telling you to do this or because you've, you know, you've. You've been caught doing something that's no longer. It's never been acceptable, but now people are calling people out for these poor experiences. So I love that you're involving the voice of the people that we say we are here to serve. And to your point, Steve, it requires, this is part of sport 2.0. All of these practices and these approaches that we used are no longer the ones that are really needed and will serve the elevated conversation to ensure that we're walking the talk with respect to these values of inclusion and diversity and open, safe, welcoming environments. So I'm curious, Mel, when you do this work, after you've done the why and you've helped them understand maybe the broader perspective, what are some of the barriers? Do you think that people. So maybe some common barriers that you're experiencing on behalf of the people that may have been racialized or, you know, are part of the groups that haven't had an opportunity to have voice.
[00:20:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I find attitudinal barriers are still prevalent that even, like, as you said, sometimes there are sport leaders that are well intentioned, but there's maybe a resistance to sort of want to change whatever processes, whatever policies, whatever practices have traditionally been there. And a bit of an attitude of, well, we are inclusive. If we're diverse, then we must be inclusive. And sometimes those two concepts are used interchangeably. And so sometimes it can be a bit of a feeling of a resistance, and sometimes it seems like the terrain is unknown, it's uncertain. And so there might be a bit of a hesitancy around, well, how do we advance inclusion? How do we advance diversity? And even the thought of trying to do something becomes worrisome to some to say, well, is it going to be too much effort then it's worth. Because sometimes I've heard we don't want to do it wrong, because any effort we try to make, any edi effort we try, somebody might criticize us for doing it wrong. And so there's a worry about in not getting it perfectly right. It's better to just not even make an attempt.
So I think maybe that's one around sort of attitudes. I think environmental, architectural, physical barriers are still barriers to inclusion, barriers to accessing particular sports, especially if sport leaders haven't thought about designing adapted sport and making sure that whatever the sport is, is it accessible and to whom? Economic barriers, of course. Course. How much money does it cost to participate in the sport? How much equipment does it cost to participate in the sport? And so if there aren't considerations of what are the reasons why we might not be seeing various populations accessing our sport, and how do we bridge that gap to make sure that that is not a barrier to why they aren't participating? I think that can certainly be a barrier. What else? There's closed network inability for some groups to build social capital. So I find we are connected when we bridge those gaps. And so do sport organizations have various networks? Are they tied into various local community groups and various interest groups, associations in their areas, in their regions? Because without that, without having the connections, there might be some groups that are just left out because they don't know even where to begin, how to register, how to access the sport. So again, who's bridging those gaps? Where are we reaching out into the community, learning and understanding our community to say, hey, are you interested in this sport? How do we get you? How do we get you to come in and participate?
Other barriers can be a lack of accountability just in terms of advancing inclusion. If nobody's actually designated the responsibility of keeping something going, then it's very easy. You talked about intentionality before. It can be very easy for that to fall to the wayside because we get so busy doing other things that we haven't been intentional on making sure that EDI efforts are a priority. So, yeah, probably that if people aren't advancing in their sport, it might be because of not prioritizing it as high as others.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Mel, I'm curious that if a client calls you and says, hi, I'd like some dei services, what's the next part of that conversation?
[00:23:58] Speaker C: I will engage in a conversation to just kind of flesh out whereabouts they're at. What was it that motivated them to connect? Have they already, on their own, identified areas of potential gaps?
Have they heard from members of their community? And oftentimes it's athletes. I find athletes these days are their own social activists. And the accountability piece is that the sport leaders are accountable to primarily a lot of participants to say, we're demanding, we want more. And so they say, hey, we've actually heard from our participants and from our athletes, and they want to know what's going on, what are we doing? So it's kind of getting an understanding of where are they at? Do they have policies in place?
What are their values?
Have they engaged adequately enough with their various community groups, with their coaches, with their administrators, with their staff? Have there been conversations? What type of EDI efforts have they done in the past. So just getting a bit of an understanding of where they've been and then figuring out where they want to go and then helping them design how they get there.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I find it really inspiring, Mal, as someone who's been advocating for a management by values, you know, approach for seems like ever, it feels very intuitive for me, especially if, if one of the values is inclusion, you know, diversity, belonging, and you'll see that, you know, on, on many of the sport organization websites, right, that we believe in. And what it struck me is this needs a roadmap. It's not enough for people to have this language. There needs to be intentionality, there needs to be a strategy, there needs to be education and communication.
You know, taking this commitment to the next level to ensure the branding and the images we use to showcase our sport is actually reflecting our Edii realities, right? Or not, as you're saying. And, you know, the greatest resistance, it's the fear of being called out. And when clients come to me and express that, there's often a big silence, right? Like, I'm so scared that we are going to be called out and so are we going to let the fear disrupt or paralyze us? And so the good intention connecting it back to our values is our best risk mitigation strategy. So I'm wondering, as we're, you know, we're going to close off here, we're winding our journey down the mountain together, melting what might be some of your high hopes for the sports system. And why does this work matter so much to you? It would be helpful for our clients to hear about what's on your wish list as we continue to do this work. It's a journey, not a destination. Right. What are some of the things that you believe? Mel, our clients need to hear what would be on your wish list over the next two years, let's say to 2026. And then maybe, maybe let us, we'll close off with you, sharing with us why, why this work matters so much to you.
[00:27:27] Speaker C: So, okay, if I had a wish list for over the next couple of years, what I would love to see in the sport landscape is people leaning in to having conversations that are courageous, to giving each other a bit of grace, to not be perfect and to continue the dialogue. Because I find if we're just having a conversation, if we see things differently, if we have a different lens that we see the world with based on our experiences, can we just have a dialogue about it and not get into an argument? So my sort of wish list is, how do we move forward in a way that is with grace, is with empathy, is valuing one another and allowing each other to celebrate our differences. Let's be ourselves and recognize our differences, but also recognize what we have in common. And I find all of that is going to be through engagement, through dialogue, through a thirst for trying to just better understand one another. And that's going to take effort through education as well, but primarily education and dialogue, because I think sometimes we get really divisive when trying to facilitate a conversation, for example. And there are loaded terms that are thrown out like white supremacy and privilege and terms that all that, all of a sudden, before we get started, people want to shut down because they hear these terms. They might disagree or don't fully understand, and then people get defensive, and then we don't want to have dialogue. So I think if we can kind of get rid of some of these terms that hold us up and just say that, okay, our motivation is just to better understand. Let's then have a conversation. And then that way, sport leaders can take a bit of risk in trying to advance Edi because there isn't that fear that all of a sudden they're going to be attacked if they make a misstep. You know, it's, it's just going to be recognizing that we have good intentions. Let's move there together.
Let's be empathetic with each other, and let's just keep the dialogue going.
That's my, that's my main bucket list. Wish list.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. I think that's a beautiful intention. And then quickly, why does this work matter so much to you?
[00:30:00] Speaker C: Well, I mean, I think it's going to be similar to you both in that we love sport. Right. And I think we've seen the positive benefits and advantages that we've gotten from the sport. Like me personally, through various sports, but primarily soccer, that has been my bridge to understanding other cultures, other individuals, regardless of race, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, age. It's, it has been the thing that, that I have used when I've traveled to connect with others. If I have cleats, I can find a field, I could find people playing, and already where we have found a commonality of a sport, and then we can learn from each other from there. So I think it's the positive experiences, though, that we want in sport. And so we, we don't want to be tripped up by all, by all of that. The negative experiences that people can experience. Not super eloquent, but there it is.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: Very powerful in closing, because we are going to close Mel. Of course, I really appreciate you spending time with us to talk about such an important topic, and one that we continue to evolve and create in the sport community. If you want to reach out to Mel directly, you can find her email in the episode notes below or M. Knox, K n o Xportlaw, CA as usual, in the episode notes below you'll find some sport log blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today.
And we want to thank you so much to our listeners. We are so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you and to elevate sport.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: As always, to have your say in Sportopia. Email us at Helloportlaw Cat or on social media atlassia to let us know what you want to hear about next. Until then, keep well. Stay tuned for the next episode.
