Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve indigot sport Law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: You welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're back for another conversation in building more healthy human sport. Today, we'll be exploring a little bit of Communication 101, the art and science of providing feedback.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's not always easy to give or receive feedback, but it can be a gift, right, Steve? So before we jump in today, I'm curious, Steve. It has been a moment, because I've been on holidays for, it feels like forever. I want to know what's coming across your desk this week.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: I always like, in preparation of recording our podcast, Dina, i, of course, have to think about what we want to talk about when we talk about what's coming across our desk. And I want to talk about something that came in first thing this morning. It was a phone call from a local club where a set of divorced parents were asking for information about their child in a program, and the club was unsure of what information that they can disclose to the other, not knowing what the motivation of the request of the information is. So my advice always in these types of scenarios is that we're not divorce court. Sport is not divorce court. We don't make judgments or court orders on how parents or divorced parents will communicate or what information they have access to. So I always look at it from the perspective of, at minimum, you're looking at communicating with the registered parent on the form exclusively. And then if the non listed parent is looking for information, that they should get that from their partner.
Again, not knowing what the motivation of a request of information is is really relevant. Is it part of the divorced action to prove that a parent is irresponsible a bad parent? And of course, as I said at the beginning, we don't want to be involved in that as we're not part of the divorce proceedings. We are here to provide sport and healthy human sport.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Wow. I can see how that could be a sticky situation.
And if we have the right information on the form, it really helps. Right. If both parents are listed, then there's no issue. So that's great. Steve, what I want to share actually, it's what hasn't come across my desk the last six weeks. So, as you know, it's been a practice of mine for about a decade to take some really good time off. And what I want to share with people, that has helped me, because too often with my clients, there's a sense of overwhelm. I can't take time off because there's so much work and the return to work. Right. People are nervous about the volume of work, so they never take that time off, which contributes to workplace burnout and stress and fatigue. So what I've done, and I've done this the last, I'd say four years, I take six weeks off, but the first week I'm in transition, so it's like going from 100% down to probably 50%. And I'm cleaning up my inbox. I'm getting organized, I'm letting go of certain things. I'm writing, I'm doing a lot of writing. And then I can kind of step into my holiday time with a good conscious and feeling like I've unburdened myself. And then I did the same thing coming back from holiday. So I take basically four weeks off. But my leaving my work and coming back to work is, I think, a really good transition that as a practice has just helped me let go and then recharge my battery. So I'm excited to come back.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: And are you revigorated? Are you ready to go for another eleven months?
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I was looking ahead at our travel schedule and I'm heading off to Europe for some additional fun and relaxation with our childhood best friends as couples where we can't wait. But you and I have a very busy fall ahead. With hope on the horizon, I think we've got like five destinations that we're heading to into the fall. So I'm very excited to be spending quality time with you and with our friend Carrie from the CCS as we go across Canada talking about healthy human sport.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: It'll be nice to see everybody in person again as we've continued the tour. So with regard to today's topic, Dina, again, we always like to talk about the different sides of the shop. Of course, the law side and more your side, the leadership side. And today's topic, of course, falls in both our Baileywicks. But I'm wondering what your thoughts are on why we're here to talk about communication and why is it so?
[00:04:58] Speaker B: You know, Steve, I have found when I speak to a leader who is healthy and a leader know, wants to work on a leadership edge, right, a topic that's really important to her, the topic of communication often comes up. And some of the leaders I'm supporting want to feel more confident in their communication.
Some want to ensure that the way in which they're communicating is being received. So their intention matches the experience of the people that they're mentoring. Feminine leading.
And I'm also noticing that in terms of communication, that people are hesitating, especially now around maltreatment in sport and unsafe practices. People are, I'd say, nervous. Some are walking on eggshells. They're not sure how to communicate to an athlete that they haven't made the team. They're not sure how to communicate to their colleague that they felt disrespected by the tone of their voice. So we thought that for today, we would engage in hopefully a helpful conversation around the art and science of providing feedback. And so what's really interesting, I like to look at definitions. I think that's probably the researcher in me. I find it really fascinating, right, to go back and look at the root words. Right. So feed. I'm going to feed you information and back. I want this loop. I need to know that what I offered you as a gift really did it actually land? And then how are you receiving what it is that I'm offering? So that's the kind of when you take the root words, feed and back, what's interesting, if you look at the Merriam Webster thezoris and dictionary, it says it's the transmission of evaluative or corrective information about an action, an event or a process. So there's that kind of nuance. But the other nuance, which you and I were giggling about before we started recording feedback is also that rumbling, whining, whistling sound resulting from an amplified or broadcast signal. You know, that little that you get, and everybody puts their hands over their ears. So maybe I'll pause there, Steve, because I know we were chuckling about the experience of people that you're about to say, hey, I'm going to give you feedback.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: That's the good news about streaming now is you don't get the pausing for station identification and that loud screeching noise coming through your television.
It's interesting. Dina from a feedback perspective, and I'm just making notes here as we're talking about how that plays into my side of the law world, and particularly it rears its heads on employment. And a lot of times when we are looking at terminating an employee, the communication side of it doesn't necessarily align with the legal side. From a legal perspective, we really don't want to say a lot of why someone's getting terminated, as that could be a catalyst to further litigation. But one of the important parts of employment law, if you're looking at termination for cause, is progressive discipline. And of course, that requires feedback. That requires communication to let people know what they're doing well or what they're not doing well or how they can improve. So the ability or the importance of providing feedback is really relevant from an employment perspective. And of course, we can also segue that into team selection and just really dealing with people going from zero to 100. People are confused. And when I get involved in, again, terminations of employment, usually the question isn't so much about, well, how much notice am I getting? Or how much pay in lieu of notice. It's, Why are you terminating me? You've never given me any negative feedback, so I'm really confused. So we can just see how keeping communication lines open is really relevant. And one of the things that you and I again spoke about offline was feedback. Usually when you tell somebody that you're going to provide them feedback, what happens?
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Dina they get defensive right immediately when you're like, Can I give you some feedback?
I'm like, OOH, I can feel it in the pit of my stomach. I'm anticipating that what you're going to offer is going to be negative. And even if we couch it with the bullshit sandwich, right? I'm going to tell you something nice, then I'm going to give you my feedback, then I'm going to close with something hopeful or something nice, right? And depending on your audience, it's like some people would just, like, be direct, be candid, be kind. They're not mutually exclusive propositions. They're actually mutually know. You and I, Steve, have I call it like free trade agreements, right? We can be direct and kind and always compassionate with each other. We don't have to do the, oh, here we go. Can I provide you with feedback? It's like we can have that open conversation because we've earned the right through our experience together to trust each other. But too often, if you haven't warmed people up to the experience, if you don't know their communication preference, then you end up misfiring, and then you're having to backpedal as the person who's trying to offer information, right? It can get really bad really fast. So I'm curious, Steve, what have you learned as a lawyer? Maybe let's talk about what happens. This is probably your area. What happens when feedback isn't given? What have you noticed about that?
[00:10:32] Speaker A: What's interesting, people go zero to 100. Like I said, if I'm unsure of how I'm doing over a certain period of time or a team selection issue or during my employment or my volunteer experience with an organization, and then I get terminated, I don't make the team. I'm asked not to volunteer. I usually go zero to 100. And that means I've had cases where parents have called, children's Aid society have called, the police, have sought legal representation without that communication piece to understanding the why. So feedback from that perspective is super important. So it's not a shock when people have maybe what we'll call negative information or negative news coming to them. And the other thing from a legal perspective that happens a lot, is I've had clients, unfortunately, have to pay out thousands and sometimes tens of thousands of dollars for comments that were just off the cuff. And maybe you're presented with a situation that you're unfamiliar with, or particularly under human rights law, where somebody asks you a question about maternity leave or accommodation or any other sort of leave, and we give a quick answer that doesn't comply with law and that has cost organizations tens of thousands of dollars. And one of the things that I always like to say to people is, if you don't know the answer, you're unsure. Let them know you're unsure, and you'll get back to them and take that 24 hours to try and get the right answer. And I'd like to think that's why people like us are around to make that quick phone call to get the right direction. And I want to share a personal story about you and I, Dina, that I think our listeners will appreciate. And that 24 hours role or waiting period sometimes pays off in dividends. You had sent me an email a couple of years ago.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: I know where you're going because you.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Know exactly where I'm going. You sent me an email, and I was not happy with what the contents of that email were. And funny enough, sitting here today, I don't even remember what it said, but I know reading it, I was livid. And I started typing a response back to you, and I written out a couple of paragraphs and decided I would wait. I was going to wait 24 hours to see how I felt the next day if I was still as angry as I was in the moment of writing. And come to my desk in the morning and there's an email from you saying, hey, you might have misinterpreted my tone or what I was trying to say yesterday, and this is what I really meant. And I went, oh, okay. And then I deleted the email that was coming your way. So I do think there's a tremendous amount of value sometimes in having that cooling off period to sometimes let people reflect what they said may have not been what they meant or what their heart intended.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great story. And we're chuckling now because, of course, even people who've been working together for a decade plus, depending on what else is going on in your life, right. So you and I have, like, ten out of ten trust, and so we're not looking for he's out to get me or she's trying to undermine me, but even us, depending on what else is going on in our life, we can misinterpret something. And so you said a couple of really important things, steve and I would just to add to that, to make it tangible for our clients. What Steve is speaking about is the form of the communication, right? So if you're going to provide feedback to someone, you need to know, how do they want to receive the information? First thing, second thing, how volatile is the conversation? What was the tone leading up to the delivery of the feedback? And how important is the relationship to you? What I often share with clients is the more the topic has some volatility to it, right? There's some uncertainty, ambiguity. Maybe it's been left to fester. You've attempted to have these conversations before, but you're always trying to sugarcoat it. The more we would offer, do it face to face, and if you can't do it face to face, then do it virtually so people can read the 70% of our communication, which is nonverbal.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: That's where I wanted to segue into Dina, was tone. The majority of methodologies that we communicate today are social media, email, text message, all the other platforms that exist. And what's missing from that particular medium is tone. Now. Yeah, sometimes we add a little emoji and smiley face or thumbs up. But I think tone is really important.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: You have me thinking, Steve, when I used to coach athletes, soccer athletes, so when I would do my initial intake with each of the athletes, right, it was 18 athletes, I would sit down with them and I would ask them, what is your vision for this year? What do you hope to get out of this experience?
What do you think your biggest strength is for this team?
What's an area that you want to improve and how do you want coach to talk to you? How can I best support you in my communication? And I would also say that because these were children, right. They were under the ages of 16, my additional audience was the parent. I created a whole other line of communication with the parent. I would always address it to the athletes on Team Snap, like my post game debrief. And yet I knew who was really reading it. Like, the athletes, I don't know if they read it, but their parents were reading it. So really important to be thinking about who's my audience, what is their preferred way of receiving feedback? How do I know if I don't ask them, right? So when I work with sport coaches, often that's one of the areas now that I'm spending a lot more time on is how do you know that people are receiving the feedback the way you're intending? And that has them pausing. The third thing I would offer is you need to be self aware in order to be a really good communicator. You need to know yourself. You need to know your inner operating system. You need to know what are your triggers? We all have them, right? And tone, as you said, Steve, is one of them. I know for me, I'll get personal. Like, when my husband of 28 years, when he says something, tone is what I'm checking for, and there's a whole reason for that. But that's my soft spot. When someone's tone is affirming, appreciative, I will go to the wall for you. If I feel any form of condescension or arrogance or command and control, I'm getting like I'm putting the boxing match gloves on. So you've said a lot of important things there, and I'm going to come back to you and say, in your experience, when you're coming in and supporting clients through difficult situations, how do you offer the gift, and I'm going to underscore that the gift of your feedback to the clients. What are some of the strategies that you employ?
[00:17:34] Speaker A: Well, that's a great question. A lot of times, clients will call in a panic. They're nervous, they're anxiety filled because they don't know the answer. They don't know how to do it, how to deal with it. And usually sometimes the first thing I'll say is, take a breath, we're going to figure this out. So I think, hopefully, people that I work with Find, communicating with me, calming and confident to know that there's a direction that we are going to implement to help manage the concern. So tone, I think, is important to let people know, one, I've got your back, we're going to do this together, you're not alone. And chances are it's not my first time dealing with this particular issue. So I've got some experience in helping guide the client through their concern. So I really like what you've said and what we both said on Tone I think is important and again, confidence in what we're going to lay out. The other thing is people always call feeling there's massive timelines, that quick timelines that they have to manage. They got a legal letter and they've asked to be respond by 02:00 that afternoon. Well, a lot of times lawyers, we like to put those timelines in because we do expect expediency, but really a lot of times there's not a lot of teeth behind them. So just again, helping people understand the way the world works, the timelines and the clarity with respect to a plan on how to deal with it. And also I think I have my notes here for today's podcast and I have the word caring. People want to know that we care and I know people who have concerns want to know that the sport organization cares. And a lot of times caring doesn't mean giving them the answer that they so desire. It does mean about possibly giving them a fair process to understand how we got to where we got to and what the potential steps for remedy are. So when we do a lot of case management, which we don't really do anymore, because we don't see our skill sets as valuable there as representing our clients, but when we are involved in complaints, letting a party know that a person cares about their concern is really important. And if we communicate with them clearly neutrally, depending on the role you have in the complaint, they're going to buy into that process 99% of the time. But if we say we're going to call them Friday to let them know what's going on, you better call them Friday because if we don't, they're going to lose trust, they're going to think we don't care. And that's where the communication breaks down.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: I like to use acronyms and what's coming up for me in this moment. It's spontaneous. But we've talked about trust, right? So when you're evaluating how can I provide feedback to this person to show that I care? So if that's my intention, I would invite people listening to think about what's the trust between myself and this person. On a scale of one to ten, where ten is it can't get any higher and one is it's really low. So establishing your barometer, your trust meter is what we share, I think is really important. The second thing that we've already talked about is Tone and if I've done the work. When we teach people how to hold courageous conversations, most of the time, like 80% of the effort is about me. How do I prepare to deliver this information that's really important to me? So I would offer a couple of other things, Steve. The third is timing, right? And so how do I know if the person who I want to offer the gift of my feedback to is ready? We ask.
So part of the process that we teach is we will invite someone into a conversation. And just a little note here to the listeners. It's not a good idea to say to someone as they're heading out for the weekend on a Friday at 05:00, oh, can I just provide some feedback? Do you have time for a quick conversation? Which is disguised as feedback?
So timing is everything. Ask them. Listen, I want to share and talk to you about something that happened last week. It's really important to me. And so can we find some time next week to explore that a little bit more, get it in the books and be clear about what clear about what the focus is? And then finally, what I would offer is, for me, it's all about presence. Maya Anjalu says, people aren't going to remember what you said or what you did. They will remember how you made them feel. So when we think of feedback as being a gift, one of the practices that I offer to some of our clients, Steve, is I get them to start to create a practice of offering feedback that is positive feedback. That is empowering feedback. So that when they're taking the time to invest in and nurture their relationship, so that sometimes the feedback is going to be out, it's got some words of encouragement and improvement and other times it's just a recognition or appreciation for a job well done. Right.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Does that resonate my mind's, going with that methodology of thinking, dita my mind's going to team selection?
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: And I coach as well. As you know, just because someone's on a team this year may not mean they're on the team next year. And I can talk about my own personal experience, my son's team, a lot of the players have been on the team for a long time and there hasn't been the necessity to cut somebody. But I think that day is coming.
And if you sit down with a family and the athlete who have been on the team for four or five years and now cut them, it has to be something that they have to be aware of. It can't be something, as you've said, as they're walking out the door, you post the team list, their name's not there. They call the coach and ask, why isn't my son on the team or my daughter on the team?
It has to be something that I think has to be built up. It can't be a surprise that your son or daughter can't kick with their left foot when playing soccer or their right foot or they're slow or they're not understanding the plays. I think you have to have that constant communication so it's not a complete shock when the rugs pulled out at the end of the selection process. So I really like if there's opportunities for coaches and even leaders to let their staff and their volunteers know initially that there might be concerns or feedback, that they do it in a timely basis and not, as you've said, kind of at the exit interview when they're already upset the outcome has been decided. The rationale is shocking because they didn't have that as a perception. I spoke to a new executive director this morning prior to our podcast recording today, and the first thing she's doing is meeting with all her staff and trying to understand what they do and what they want to do and what their experience is in sport and what their aspirations are. And I think that's a great starting point for constant communication as that person begins to fit within their new role as the CEO executive.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Know, steve, you got me thinking about the language we mentioned. You know, you have to cut an athlete, but when we think of the word cut, we're slicing their hearts, right? And usually the parents feel it even more so because the kids are being informed by their parents reaction. So I've heard people like, we deselect you.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: It's like, ouch.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: There's terms probably like releasing athletes or maybe thinking about the language we use to say you're not ready yet. And often when I was having to do that, it was my least favorite part of the experience.
I would say, listen, you're not ready yet. Here's a plan to get you ready for next year and Coach will help you do that, right. Because it's not helping them to put them above their skill level. Right. This is what we have to remind parents. And I would say as we maybe close down our conversation today, in the end, in order for you to be able to provide the gift of your feedback, you have to know yourself, you have to know your intention. And as a leader, providing feedback is one of those essential skills. It will make the difference between you being a good leader and a great one. I would offer the second thing, and you said it earlier, be kind, right? Offer feedback in a way that the person wants to receive it. That's the platinum rule. Don't offer feedback the way you want to receive it. That's the golden rule. So really thinking of elevating your capacity to know the audience and then I would say the third thing is to be generous in your feedback, like specific and helpful, so that the person who's receiving it has clarity. Oh, I understand why Dean is sharing this with me. I know what she's looking for so I can make improvements. I trust that she's going to be there to support me. And what I would leave you with, Steve, is imagine if coaches and athletes, they only provided feedback to the athletes when they were ready to cut them, right? When they were ready to release them. What a wasted opportunity. So I think as leaders, we can look to athletes and coaches who are delivering and receiving feedback all the time.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: I'm with you. Being proactive, being clear, watching tone will hopefully set you up for success. There will be, of course, people who will only be looking at the end result and will only want that. But I think those things that you've spoken about and that I've spoken about today hopefully will give sport leaders some tips on how to successfully communicate and to minimize the risk to their organizations. As we all know, dealing with problems or concerns is time consuming and proactive clarity, clear communication will hopefully alleviate that amen.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: So, as we look to say goodbye, we wanted to direct you in the episode notes below. We've linked a few blogs that relate to communicating effectively and giving the gift of feedback. So hope we hope you enjoy that. Thank you so much to everyone for listening. We're really grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you as we look.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: To elevate Sport, just as we've talked about today. Please share your feedback with us. We'd love to hear what you think of Sportopia and what you want to hear about next. As always, to have your say, email us at hello at sportlaw CA or on social media at sportlaw CA to let us know what you want to hear about next. Stay tuned for our next episode.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Be well.
