Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indigot's Bortlaw. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Hey Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport. Very excited for this episode as we have a very special guest to lead a discussion on trans inclusion in sport.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Kai is a social scientist whose 15 year career has focused on solving complex social issues, including those faced by transgender and nonbinary people. He has conducted research and delivered education on gender diversity to over 35,000 people across Canada. As such, he has deep insights into the state of gender in our society. There have been so many developments in sport that relate to fostering cultures of belonging, and we thought it would be helpful to have Kai join us to discuss how sport organizations can continue to proactively advocate for welcoming environments for all participants. So before we get started, Steve, what's coming across your desk this week?
[00:01:23] Speaker A: I know this episode Dean is coming out in a couple of weeks, but I just returned last night, and I know you came back a day early from Nunavut. And what I really enjoyed about the trip was a bit of re energization into why we do what we do. And we've talked on previous podcast episodes about how a lot of what I do particularly stays behind a computer or a microphone. And to see the end result of what we do is a little bit more challenging. When you write a new set of bylaws or create an employment agreement, you might not have that same success or that same feeling of joy as winning a soccer, basketball or volleyball tournament. So I was really quite inspired by the people in Nunavut and their ability to make sport happen with the difficulties that they have because of geography and resources and limited access to skilled coaches. And I was just really inspired, again, about being a part of the sport community to see people thrive. And that definition of thriving wasn't based on, necessarily medals. It was about participation and getting people active. And that was reiterated over and over throughout the weekend. So I really just was reinvigored, remotivated by what we saw happening with very little resources. And it was just, again, just a reminder of the not so in front of people successes that we have or our piece in the sport wheel. But it was just, again, very exciting to see that happen, to simplify it and see the success the athletes and the participants and the recreational participants have in Noonavut. How was your trip, Dina? Do you have anything to talk about? What's come across your desk?
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Well, I just really love spending time with you and our clients. They're really more collaborators than anything. And a couple of things. One was in Nunavut, actually. They showed a beautiful campaign to encourage more girls and women to stay involved in sport throughout their lifespan. And the tagline is, this girl can.
And so as we start to reimagine sport 2.0, they also love that language, too. Stephen?
[00:03:42] Speaker C: Kai.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Right. It's this idea of moving beyond our current structure and systems and policies and everything that's kind of feeling weighty and it's outdated and clunky. The computer system is not designed to meet the complexities of a 21st century operating system. This idea of new language, sport 2.0. So on that vein, I came home to a client saying, good news. We got the budget. We want you and your team to work with our coaches, and we're using a psychometric tool called the Nova profile that allows us to. It's kind of like shining a spotlight inside of our inner world to help challenge some of our ways of thinking. How we make meaning, how we communicate with others, what are our behaviors? When are we at our best? When do we fall short? So this psychometric tool is incredible. When we work with individuals and then we make cultures of belonging, we are better able to work with the tension that naturally arises in our cultures, when our teammates, when our employees, when all of us are using the same language. So I'm super excited because this project is now looming. We're going to start to engage in that, and that is the kind of work that makes our heart. So thank you, Steve. And I think that's a really beautiful bridge to Kai and your work, Kai and your company, and the important ways in which you're helping to educate, to sensitize all of us to new ways of being actually inside these cultures, and so maybe introduce yourself beyond what we've already shared and maybe let us know what is coming across your desk.
[00:05:28] Speaker C: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me here today. I'm really excited to share space with you and to talk about these really important issues. I did want to briefly say that I, too, have been to nonavote, and it's this really special place. It's near and dear to my heart. I actually used to work in the mining industry and would do social impact assessments. And so I've actually been clear across Nunavut whether Kukluktuk Johaven, Arctic Bay. Like all of this just brings a flood of really wonderful memories back. There's just such a warm heart that folks have, and what you described really resonates with what I saw there as well. So I'm really encouraged to hear that the conversation continues in how to improve things for folks there, whether it's sport or otherwise. It's really important to shed a spotlight there because it's often overlooked part of Canada. So my name is Kai Scott, and I use the pronouns he and him. I'm with trans focus consulting. As my bio said, one thing I'll add into the bio is I'm a big data nerd. So for anybody out there that loves numbers and putting together information, you're my people.
And as part of that, what's coming across my desk is I've conducted quite a few assessments recently. I know you were talking about some psychometric assessments. I think those are really key. But it's also looking at the systems and how people go through a journey within an organization, whether they be a client or an employee, to understand what that boots on the ground looks like and how to address some of those issues. And so it's not just about broadly knowing it, but specifically going. So it's focus groups, it's surveys, it's walkthrough assessments that I conduct. So I've got a bunch of those that I've recently done. So I'm furiously typing up all the notes and coming together with a set of recommendations for those organizations, along with the usual education sessions which happen. There's a sports organization that we're just recently helping with some of their policy implementation. So there's a lot going on. Never a dull moment, always very exciting stuff that we're doing. So, yeah, that's a bit of what's happening on my end.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: I love that. I love that you geek out on things like numbers and data. And what I love about that, I often say our words can shape our world. And when we have access to something, evidence or that's going to support or hopefully help shift to some of our mindsets, then we can begin with maybe a more honest, candid conversation, which I'm sure a lot of what we're going to talk about today is the importance of doing that. So, Kai, from your experience, what are some of the current challenges, maybe barriers that transgender athletes face when participating in sport?
[00:08:25] Speaker C: Such a good question. There's a lot happening, and we've done quite a bit of research on this, along with reading other people's research and time and time again, we see that there's access just getting into the sport. And then once people are in the sport, to stay in the sport. In terms of access, trans and nonbinary folks often, if there's not a policy or any clarity, don't know whether they'll be supported in accessing the team that aligns with their gender identity. And the reason why that is, is because for trans people, the basic definition is that their gender identity is different than their sex at birth. And so if they're wanting to join a team and there's only men's and women's, not the full spectrum of gender identities, because there's more than just men and women. There's also non binary folks that then puts them in a precarious position of like, okay, I'm going to show up, but what's going to happen? Are people going to question whether I should be on this team? Are they going to put me in the other team? Are they going to contest? Are the players on the other team going to say something? Will the organization have my back? And so the access issues are pretty key, especially for non binary folks, especially if there's only men's and women's teams or boys and girls teams. Once people get into the door, a lot of people don't because of those access issues. Then they're faced with the registration forms. Are there enough categories? Do they allow for a chosen first name field rather than just legal name dressing rooms, how they'll be received in if there's only men's and women's, boys and girls dressing rooms. So it just gives you a flavor. There's much more to it, along with some of the cultural aspects, whether people will make fun of them. There's a lot of jokes, a lot of microaggressions, a lot of comments, questions, even things stated as concerns, but really are about pushing back on people's participation. And so there's just so many layers that either people don't feel comfortable to come out, if that's something they can do, or they will stay but keep quiet as not to rock the boat. So those are some of the dynamics at play.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: You and I have had the ability to work together with several national sport organizations trying to establish the trans inclusion policy. And one of the comments that routinely comes up is, why do we need this policy for this specific group of people?
So why? I think it's important because a lot of people say that, well, people want to play, so let's find a way to make them play. But why do you think we need a specific policy for a trans inclusive environment?
[00:11:13] Speaker C: Absolutely. It's actually for clarity for everyone. So this is clarity definitely for trans and non binary athletes, because if they don't actually see explicit inclusion in a way that's spelled out very clearly, then some people will not enter the door. They'll want to play, they'll want to participate, but they just won't because it's too much of a risk for them to just kind of jump into the void and hopefully get caught. But they don't caught with a supportive net, but they don't generally know. And the current status and environment is not one of acceptance, so people don't risk that, which I understand.
Then there's also clarity for the coaches, for staff involved at organizations, for administration to be able to say, clearly, this is where we stand and this is how we're going to implement this. And I appreciate when people say, well, this is one in 300 people is trans or non binary in Canada, we know that from the census now that was conducted in 2021. So it feels like it's such a small number of the population, but there's some very unique challenges that need to be addressed head on for there to be clarity in ways that allow people to participate or to support somebody in that participation and not wonder, because especially a lot of coaches, they're like, I don't know, I think you should be able to be on this team. And so they also kind of are spinning their wheels. So I think if you really spell it out, just doesn't leave anything to the imagination. And there's consistency in people being able to access the sport.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: So thank you for that. I love we were talking about that. Right. Clear is kind. When we have access to a policy that frames the organization's commitment to trans inclusion or people who are non binary, it's like, you're safe here, you can play. So I love that you've clarified that. I wonder, what proactive steps do you think sport leaders can take to create a more inclusive, welcoming environment, especially for nonbinary and transgender participants?
[00:13:26] Speaker C: Yeah, there's quite a bit that can be done both on a structural level as well as a cultural level. Even if you don't have a policy in place, there's still ways forward and a lot of it around. The structural piece is to clarify the dressing room or washrooms, what the options available are. And I appreciate that a lot of the buildings that are leased or rented or somehow used by sports organizations are typically older and so don't have a lot of options. But then it doesn't just stop at the building. It's also good just to look around the building. Maybe there's a Starbucks nearby where you have a single unit available. And so just thinking creatively, or maybe there's a staff washroom that people can use. So it's looking beyond and being creative. Also updating registration forms so that you're collecting gender in a more expanded form, not just boys and girls, men and women, but there's also a cultural piece that I think is really important. So if somebody shares their first name or the pronouns that they use, it's really respecting those. It seems really simple, but I think some people hesitate in this moment because they say, well, on their legal document, it says this and we should keep this. But not realizing that actually there's a lot of challenge to changing documentation. It's not a one and done. It costs money. It's very laborious. It's a lot of steps. So just honoring the name that somebody shares and using that, allowing for space for people to share pronouns. And also really important is to push back on jokes at the expense of trans people. Again, it seems difficult at the moment. It feels awkward to kind of step in and say, hey, I didn't find that funny, or we really want to support trans people, and they have a harder time playing in the sport, let's rally behind them. And these jokes don't help with that, because I think often people assume that only cisgender or non transgender people are in the room, but there might be somebody who is not out. And so that joke just chilled that person, and perhaps they're hesitant now to continue with the sport. So there's a lot of different things that people can do, whether on a cultural level or a structural level, to improve things for trans and non binary folks.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Steve, I know you're going to ask a follow up question, but there's two things that I want to share. One is a story, and then the other is to invite you to give an example of a microaggression, because I think a lot of people are. Huh. What is a microaggression, especially for trans, maybe non binary people? So I want to give you a little moment to think about that. Kai, I want to share a story. So I went to a youth event with, I think it was my oldest child quite a few years ago now, probably seven years ago. And when I went to the event, the people that greeted us, they had name tags, and they asked my gender identity. I'm taking you back. 2016, maybe. Okay, and I was so touched. And so I put she, her beside my name. And everybody, all the youth in the room had. It was so natural for them to embody this way of describing a little bit more about me, my social location, right? Because, as you said, we default to these assumptions. We forget that maybe there are people, the stuff that's not obvious, like the color of our skin, but what about who we are and what we might connect to? So I loved that. And shortly thereafter, talk about the children teaching the adult a thing or two, I started adding she and her l in French to my signatory line. And I know I was one of the first people to do that in the canadian sports system, because I'm taking you back a moment. And I received shortly thereafter, I was connecting with someone, and that person reached out to me to let me know that they thought it was so helpful. They felt safe with me. So it's less about me and me showing I associate with this. It is actually the impact that we can have on people to let them know that with me, you have a safe environment. So I just wanted to thank you for that. And any comments on that. Kai.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great example. And thank you for sharing that story. It is really useful to share one's pronoun, irrespective of one's gender identity or whether one is trans or not. Anyone can provide their pronouns. Of course, it's always on a voluntary basis. Nobody is forced into doing this. And the key thing there is that it's not just trans and non binary folks that are sharing. If a few others are also, it's just this kind of easier way to bring it into the conversation. Otherwise, it's kind of awkward. Like, when do I say this? How do I say it? It just becomes this complex math in one's head. And then often people don't do it because it's just they never find a good moment. And if they see others doing it, then it's just part of this environment where that's happening. It's natural to exchange pronouns. It's part of the culture. And also, you're right, this default assumption, when we look at somebody, when we're first meeting them, they could look feminine, masculine, androgynous. And we make certain conclusions based on how they look. And it's so quick and so automatic that we could apply the incorrect pronoun to someone, and then they're put in the awkward position of having to correct us. And that's where it becomes very difficult. And that's why in this event that you went to is, rather than making assumptions, let's help people by providing the opportunity for them to provide their pronoun, and then there's no guesswork for everybody involved. Of course, if somebody doesn't provide their pronoun because it's voluntary, we could just default to they them pronouns as like a placeholder until we learn more. So it's slightly different ways of approaching interactions, especially if we don't know somebody that help facilitate this more inclusive environment where we don't put people in difficult positions, especially non binary folks for whom they pretty much we have stats from Transpulse Canada. They'd say about. I think it's three quarters of non binary folks get misgendered on a daily basis, every single day. That's a lot of misgendering. So there's ways that we can improve that with just slight adjustments to our interactions.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: I have a two part question.
One is trans inclusion generational? And what I mean by that is, I know my kids who are ten and twelve. There are some trans children in their class already, and it's not a conversation with them. That's John, that's Jennifer, they're in my class. We play tag. Everything's great, right? So one, I wonder if trans inclusion, is it a generational concern? And second part of that question is we get a lot of phone calls about a lot of organizations where maybe their national sport body or their territorial or provincial body hasn't created a trans inclusion policy. And they're presented with that scenario and people struggle with how to manage it. And one of the things that I always recommend is talk to the person, ask them what's the best way that we can create an open, happy environment for that person to participate. And I want you to give feedback if you think that's a right thing to do. Is it the wrong thing to do? What's the best way, when faced with a person who wants to participate as a trans athlete, to deal with that, to make them feel comfortable?
[00:21:35] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, of course, I have no data to support this, but I will say, just anecdotally, I do appreciate and see that for youth that perhaps this is being taught in school, that they have this understanding. They essentially didn't learn any of the kind of more binary ways of thinking. And they were just taught that trans and nonbinary folks exist from an early age that they didn't have to kind of unlearn and relearn something versus older generation folks, myself included, as a Gen X or just that we were told this is how it is, and there's only men and women, boys and girls, there's no gender different than sex whatever. And so this is something that is relatively new to them. And I totally understand where it's like a bit of deer and headlights moment of this feels like a lot. I'm very surprised and maybe even disoriented, and I'm just scrambling to catch up. And so I very much appreciate how that can be very daunting. Versus younger generation are like, what's the big deal? This is yesterday's news. I'm onto something else, right? So there can be a bit of a disconnect between generations. Obviously, it's not as simple as that. That's a bit of stereotyping that we're doing. And I do see some older generation folks really getting it quickly and NBD, no big deal. And then I do see some younger generation who are pushing back on it and causing harm. So they don't always align based on generations. In terms of the policy question, definitely it's really useful to have a policy in place. Absent of that, it is useful to have a conversation with the trans person. It's always good to personalize the approach, whether or not you have a policy, it's good to have a conversation to understand where they're at, what they need, if there's any privacy considerations. Right. If this is the first time they're talking to, say, a coach or something, just to understand who else knows so that you don't inadvertently out them to somebody else. Right. So there's just ways to have those conversations. I will say that it's good to do that, to have especially choice among options of what kind of support they need. But I would be careful not to overload that person either, especially if they're a youth. It could be quite heavy to have to explain everything that they need, and maybe they're not even able to fully, just that they're just learning themselves as they go. So it might be an iterative conversation and. Or to say, here are some options.
Think about it. There's no rush, just really slow things down so that people don't feel put on the spot of having to figure it all out, whether youth or not, because I think sometimes these things are a bit delicate. And it's not that we have all this information about ourselves at the fingertips, so just to be sensitive to that piece, and that's why policy helps, because it has done some of the heavy lifting of knowing the parameters so that it's easy for folks to show up and say, hey, based on what you all put together, this is what I would like to do going forward. So I think both are really important, but you can still do something if there's no policy.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I really appreciate that. What's coming up for me is when I do cultural work, I'm trying to practice cultural humility. So beyond being competent, so agile, right, in my ability to be with other cultures, I need to actually back it up and do the work. I need to do the heavy lifting. I need to become more aware, more sensitive, so that I can feel more competent. And then when I stay in this space, I can be humble, right where I'm not making all of these assumptions. So it feels very similar in this approach, and there's a really different approach. And see if you feel into this, Kai, when we're not sure about something, we can, as you said, download all the expectations to the young person or others and say, no, you have to teach me how I need to treat you. That feels very different than when we adopt a culturally humble approach. We're actually kind of, like, with the person there and say, I'd love for you to teach me more about how I can show up for you, but not teach me all the things that I'm supposed to know and the hard work. Do you feel the difference between teach me and, hey, teach me how I can show up for you? Now, does that make sense?
[00:26:10] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. There's sometimes when people are in the mode of creating more difficulty for trans people, inadvertently, mostly, there's a strong expectation put to it that you ought to teach me or you ought to explain yourself to me. And that kind of mode can really create somebody to pull back and be like, this is too much, too much energy, too much expectation, versus, like, I want to work with you. I want to make this experience the best possible. And there's a few things that we need to consider together. I'll have some options so that you don't have to get to think of everything. And I'd love to hear at every certain stages what your thoughts are. And you're in the driver's seat, but we're here to support you. Something in that vein can help just really loosen up what somebody is already pretty anxious because it's opening a door which they cannot close. And so this is a very tenuous moment for them. And just being sensitive to that rather than being like, okay, you said this, and now, tuck, tuck, tuck, we're going to pull things out of you, and it's like, oh, it could be very.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Daunting, I guess that, Steve, that feels like an example of a microaggression right here. No, you need to teach me how. I need to speak to you. And if that young person has to do that every single day, like they're being mistyped, misgendered, maybe a dozen times a day, that adds wounds to the soul. Right? All those invisible.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: I'd be remiss, Dean, and not to throw in some legal insight here and wisdom, when we start treating people that way, we're treating them differently. Do we ask those same questions, have those same expectations from all our participants? And the answer, of course, is no. So that starts getting into that human rights protection prohibited ground. And that's why it's important to be inclusive and hopefully our generation. And that's not the right word. Hopefully.
I don't even know what the right word is. I want to say atmosphere. Our environment, that's the word I'm looking for, is going to maybe stop thinking about this. And when you go back to sport, fundamentally, what are we really about? We're about participation.
[00:28:27] Speaker C: We want people to play.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: And I think if we remember that, a lot of the answers come a little bit more simpler.
[00:28:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And how to create those pathways for participation. And they may look different across different. There may be some common pieces, but there's also unique aspects to creating that participation. And it's often really simple stuff.
It may take a little practice to make that smooth and feel competent with it, but it's actually not that difficult. I think people have very large notions, especially when any type of change is introduced, that it'll be this very different thing, when in fact it's more just shifts in how we approach one another and being more open to the information that somebody provides rather than either expecting it or jumping to some sort of conclusion. And I realized, too, I wanted to add to your microaggression statement, there's quite a few, and some of them are related to how somebody looks. So a very common one that trans women get are, oh, wow, you're so beautiful for a trans woman. Right. The subtext being, I didn't expect a trans woman to be beautiful. Also that women ought to be beautiful or very feminine. Right. So there's a lot of different layers to that comment that, again, people are trying to pay somebody a compliment, but in doing so, it backfired. It didn't land the plane along with some other ones, of why are you using multiple pronouns?
That's ridiculous. Or something to that effect, where even in the tone that one uses can just indicate that that's od or different, or we don't accept that here, versus just being like, thank you for sharing your pronouns, and I will work very hard to respecting those. Right. So just a few examples there that we hear time and time again. One other one, just evasive questions, invasive questions, like, have you had the surgery? Is a very, very common one. So baked into that is the assumption that every trans person undertakes a medical transition which doesn't actually happen for everyone. It's an option available to folks, and that there's just one surgery, which is not the case. There's actually many different options available to folks. So just thought I'd unpack a few of those that we hear quite often.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Wow. So inspiring. It reminds me of, in one of the teachings I offer, we talk about communications, and do you remember the golden rule? Our parents brought us up saying, treat people the way you want to be treated. Remember that?
[00:31:12] Speaker C: Right?
[00:31:12] Speaker B: Gen Xer.
What we teach now, Kai, is the platinum rule, and that is treat people the way they want to be treated. And lean into that. You have to ask people, how do you want to be treated? How do I get to know you? So that I can take into account your preferences, which includes maybe your pronouns, right. And that humility that we were speaking to earlier. As you said, it's hard work because we're not often exercising, flexing those muscles, right? But it does come when you're compassionate and you're not making assumptions.
The ability to be in this unknown space becomes more available to us. And then when we mess know, we fess up, we make it right. And I'll share with our know. Right before we started, Kai, Steve and I, we acknowledged that we may get it wrong, we may say something, and that we invited Kai to be our teacher, to let us know and use it as an opportunity to maybe very elegantly, gracefully, and with compassion, let people know, hey, we don't say that anymore. That was like a 20th century kind of practice. So here's what we can say. Right. So thank you for that. Kai, we have one last question that we'd love to kind of connect with you around, and that's. You have this blog on your website. You've got really good writings and teachings, and this one's called practical considerations for employers. Now, we mainly talk about athletes, right? We've been navigating that here in this conversation. But we'd also like to take into account transgender employees because there's 34,000 sport organizations. And as you said, one out of 300 are trans people, and many more might be non binary. So could you elaborate maybe on your views so that we create these holistic, welcoming spaces for people to feel like they belong?
[00:33:19] Speaker C: Absolutely. It's really important to understand that there's trans people everywhere, whether they be athletes or employees, working for organizations. Again, whether or not you know, you'd likely, if you do the count, you already have somebody in your organization that is trans or non binary. So just operating from that kind of lens is to think about how welcoming the space is, whether it's the types of systems you've set up. Particularly what comes to play for a lot of trans folks is if they have different names, their chosen name versus their legal name, and be able to input that into the system.
If they're just in the hiring process, then there's reference checks that are often have their past name involved in them, or going into an employer with their past name and just who has that information. How readily accessible is it? Ideally, it'd be protected and private, with very few people knowing about that. There's also things like more education for employees to know how to navigate some of the things that we just talked about today. So much of the things that we talked about with athletes also applies to employees. Obviously, there's more responsibilities as an employer, particularly to prepare managers for trans employees coming out at work and the process and the steps to introduce that person and if they've changed their name and their pronoun to understand what those steps are and to know the law. And I don't have to state what that is. There's a lot of new case law, not a lot, I should say, some new case law that's come out, particularly clarifying the importance of pronouns. So I think that's for employers to understand their role in case somebody is being intentionally misgendered within the workplace and the steps they need to take to intervene to make that, to correct that. So there's a lot at play when it comes to supporting employees within the sports organization.
Hi.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: It's been about 30 or 40 minutes of our podcast, and I know we could go for another 2 hours, and hopefully this hasn't been too difficult for you and too painful for you, and you'll come back again to try and maybe we'll dig down a little deeper on maybe some specific topics. But I've always enjoyed working with you, and I do want to thank you for your time today to spend with Dina and I on our Sportobia podcast. I hope today's listeners will learn at least one thing about trans inclusion in sport and employment, and hopefully you'll come back again soon. In the episode notes below you'll find some sport law blogs and some trans focus blogs, and you can find out more information related to our conversation today. We will also post Kai's contact information if people want to reach out to him directly to have conversations about healthy human sport. We want to thank all our listeners. We are so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you and to elevate sport. And thank you, Dina, once again for this episode.
[00:36:36] Speaker C: Thanks so much for having me. It was a real pleasure to talk to you today.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for your wisdom and your compassion and your ability to help all of us skillfully navigate some of these complex waters, the conversations that we need to have. So thank you so much, Kai. And until we see each other again, be well.
[00:37:00] Speaker A: As always to have your say in Sportopia. Email us at hello at Sportlaw, CA or on social media at Sportlaw, CA to let us know what you want to hear next. Stay tuned for our next episode.
