Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Vindig at sport law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Today, another one of our sport law colleagues is joining us to discuss how we can move beyond having policies to ensure that we are activating our safe sport commitments. We're so thrilled to have you join us, Kristen, and thank you for being here. So, before we get to the conversation, Steve, what's coming across your desk this week?
[00:00:58] Speaker A: As you know, bylaws is overtaking my life, particularly relating to the Ontario legislation, where all not for profits in Ontario have to update their bylaws and refile their articles. But in that light, where I'm spending a lot of my time is actually on the definition of membership and the ability for organizations to have the flexibility or the discretion to actually decide who is a member or not. And one of the things that we are proposing is your members do three things, really. They vote in your board, they elect your board, they appoint your auditor, and they amend your bylaws. And what we're seeing, particularly at the national and the provincial level, is your members are entities, are organizations, and not necessarily the individual. So one drawing a distinction between who is a member and they have that right to vote versus who's a participant, or we like to use the phrase registrant, and then having the discretion, particularly on the registrant side, to say who gets to participate in our sport or not really, depending on previous conduct of an individual. So that discretion is really something I've been talking about lately and allowing or creating bylaws or policies that give organizations discretion on who can participate in their circle. And as long as the decision is fair and reasonable and not made by a prohibited ground under human rights legislation, there is that flexibility and that discretion. So I've had a few of those conversations this week, and, of course, we'll continue having those conversations. Dina, what's new with you?
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Well, as you know, Steve, it's been a really tough.
Somewhere. I'm describing it as liminal space. I'm not really here, and I'm not there. I'm somewhere in between. Because when life goes sideways, it really is disrupting and disruptive to my need for stability, for harmony.
One of our children was hospitalized in an emergency situation, and so we are really hopeful. We have a path forward, but the road in front of us is still unknown, if you will. So what do we do when life does go sideways? I think is a helpful thing for us to notice. And one of my coping practices is to write to take my inner turmoil, my inner world, and make it visible for me to process something. And also as a gift to others. I think our situation was so out of left field, and so if anything that we've been through can be of help to others, to help avoid this kind of situation, then that's the gift, right, of this.
So because of that, Steve, when you ask what's coming across my desk, I'm like, I have to go back to my calendar. And it's been difficult because I've had to reorganize my calendar in light of all these trips to emergency and then going to the specialist. And so I'm feeling a bit jubbled today and so delighted to be here with you. And you, Kristen, to talk about proactive ways, ways that we can help prevent bad things from happening.
Right. And then when bad things do happen, how do we have processes that are transparent and values based and humanistic to help guide how we want to reduce harm? So there's the bridge from my inner turmoil to the turmoil that we see so many of our sport leaders experience right now when we talk about safety and sport.
You know, Kristen, you joined sport law. Gosh, it must be about a year ago now. It feels longer. And that's a good thing. We're just so thrilled that you are here. You bring so much expertise and knowledge and compassion to preventing maltreatment in sport, but also promoting respectful engagement and doing so through education. The other thing that I love is that you and I are both sisters as true sport champions.
And so we're just really delighted to have you here, Kristen. So maybe tell us a little bit more about you and what's coming across your desk this week.
[00:05:34] Speaker C: Yes. Well, thank you both for having me today. I'm excited to be here and chatting. Safe sport. I've been in the national sports system for a little over a decade now. I started at an MSO and then spent most of my time at an NSO in coaching and safe sport before coming over to sport law. And safe sport has been something I've been interested in since I was very young. I actually remember writing a report on Sheldon Kennedy in the late 90s, so it was really cool to meet him years later and then to continue to work with him and to work in this field. So it's really neat. It's something I'm passionate about.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:06:10] Speaker C: That's a great story.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: And did you get him to sign your essay?
[00:06:15] Speaker C: I didn't, but the first time I met him years ago, I did say that I'm like, I wrote a report on you almost two decades ago. He said, yeah, I'd like to read that now. So I don't even remember what was in it, but it was something from, like I said, two, three decades ago that I have been interested in. Yeah. So what's coming across my desk right now?
Organizations seem to be needing guidance on how to bring awareness and understanding to safe sport on the ground. Right. So we talk about it a lot at a higher level, but it's making sure we have the activation and education in the hands of those who need it. And that's really what I'm focusing on right now with clients.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: Kristen, tell us more about you worked in sport, but I also know your family is very involved in sport. So I wonder how you see your role in safe sport with what your children are constantly doing.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Yes, it's everywhere. Right. And because I have so many roles as administrator, working with clients, but then my mum role is there. So I see the environments that they are in and I want that environment to be positive, to be safe, to be inclusive and accessible, and we live it every day. And I think that's something I want to focus on on all levels is not just at the higher level, but on the ground where they are. And from my own lived experiences and my own pathway as an athlete and just ensuring that they have the best experience, because that's why we show up to sport, right, is to have fun. And that's what I want to provide for them and I want them to be able to have that experience as they go through and get older and start competing at the national level.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: You and will Russell from our team did a webinar recently on activating safe sport. What did you mean by activating safe sport? What are some of the key steps in creating a safer sport environment? How do we make something that is the definition of safe sport is very broad, but how do we make that simple for our clients to articulate and implement? I think that's probably where the biggest struggle happens to be.
[00:08:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So will and I do a lot together and it seems to work well. He really focuses on creating those policies on the legal side of things. And then I say I get to step in and do the fun part and we talk about that on three different levels. So once you have your policies in place, we focus on implementation, and we talk about that at more of the organizational level. So the staff, the board, their roles, more of what they do as a whole. Then we talk about activation, and that's a little bit more on the ground level. So for clubs, coaches, managers, volunteers, and then we take it to a third level of education a step further, and that's more so for the parents and guardians and athletes. So really, the whole goal is to turn those policies into procedures, which is what they're meant to be, and then turn them into best practices that just become part of your everyday routine. So I'll ask you, are you familiar with the word Practice?
[00:09:24] Speaker A: No. And educate me, Kristen, I love still learning.
[00:09:29] Speaker C: So this is something we were brainstorming and really trying know pinpoint. What do we do when we're talking about implementing safe sports? So, this is my favorite definition for practice. It's the process by which a theory, lesson, or skill is enacted, embodied, realized, applied, or put into practice. So, in simple terms, is the practical side versus the theory, right. It's the doing or the action. And really, that's what I do with organization.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Oh, I love that.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: I'm a little worried, Dina, that sport needs another acronym.
[00:10:02] Speaker C: Right.
[00:10:02] Speaker B: I know your head's going, what? So you had me at Praxis, Kristen.
[00:10:07] Speaker C: I love that.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: The concept between theory and then the struggle is usually in the middle. How do we take these complex commitments? I like to call them beyond policies. Policies are just commitments. Here's what we promise to do, and if we hold it from that more, I call it an ontological right, an ethical imperative. It just loosens our grip. It's like, what's your policy manual say? What's the right thing to do? Can we make this more practical? So, love that you're introducing this, really. I'd call it enlivening language around, taking something that can be theoretical and then turn it into right action. That's what we want to inspire. Right is the right action. So if we can make this just maybe continue down the more practical application beyond the safe sport policy. And now you've got some sops, your standard operating procedure. You're also a true sport champion. Right. And for listeners who aren't familiar with true sport, you can go and check out in the show notes. We'll have a link to true sport. True sport is something that's also near and dear to my heart. It's where I started my work in sport quite a few decades ago. Now, in the early ninety s and what I would say is, when we were conceiving this idea of true sport, we wanted to provide people with a standard operating procedure around if we could idealize healthy human sport, what would that look like? And so these seven principles are those guidelines, right. Those very practical ways that we can check to ensure that sport is safe and it's healthy and it's fun and inclusive. So, Kristen, maybe you can share a little bit more with us. You're very keen to be more proactive to help reduce the incidence. So can you maybe share some very practical measures that you recommend for those clients on the ground? Can you give us maybe one or two examples of what that looks like?
[00:12:12] Speaker C: Yeah, and I really like to change the narrative here. When we talk about safe sport, that positive, that proactive side of it, which aligns perfectly with the true sport principles, they just fit so well together. So you'll often hear me say, safe sport isn't just the absence of bad, it's the presence of good. And I think everyone has a role in that. As I said before, we don't just show up to sport because we think, oh, this is a good place for nothing bad to happen. No, we show up because we're passionate, because we want to have fun, because we want to play, we want to be with our friends. And that's where our focus needs to be. Right. It's creating that right environment so that there's less room for the alternative. And I know this is something you've spoken about for years, Dean, as well, but it's really about being intentional, focusing on that presence of good. So when we're thinking about that environment that we're providing or that we're know we can ask ourselves these questions, is it safe, equitable and inclusive? Is it promoting strength, resilience and self confidence? Are we ensuring respect for the opponents, the officials, the organizers? Are we allowing for growth and development and not just for our athletes, for everybody in their roles in sport? Are we encouraging fair and meaningful competition? And then I think the most important thing is, are we allowing and providing a positive environment that we're having fun in? And I think that's huge for me, is focusing on that, and that's what we need to be creating, is just that positive and fun environment.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. So, before you jump in, Steve, I want to share a little story because it really speaks to how you can, as you say, through praxis, embody this way of being, this more proactive way of being. And in Canada, I would love for us to be recognized by Canadians. Our leadership in finding that language right, that describes more of what we want, not just preventing bad things from happening, as you said earlier. So my little story is, when I was a sport coach, I think the little team of young girls, they were twelve years old, and I designed, I think, the best. It was the best season. Not only did we win the entire competition, the tournament for the season, we also brought these girls to Nicaragua, and we raised thousands of dollars and we won the true sport award. These girls learned how to run a five k. We engaged the community. So we took these seven principles, Kristen and Steve, and we embodied them as not just the athlete and coach relationship, but also the families. And one of the very practical things I did right at the beginning was to socialize the kids in true sport. So I gave them their homework and they had to choose, they had to teach each other which true sport principle mattered most to them and why. So in so doing. And then I gave them their little true sport ribbon for their hair. And so they earned their true sport ribbon by sharing with their team my favorite principles, going for it, and here's why. And then someone else would say, mine is giving back. Mine is staying healthy. So the girls started to gel as a team using the seven principles. I called it like our inner love language. So I'm really grateful to you, Kristen, in kind of demystifying some of this. And I love that you said it's all about the questions. If we ask a different question, we can change the world, right? So thank you for modeling that over to you, Steve.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: My question, Kristen, was when you go through kind of your vision of safe sport and asking all these questions, is it a safe environment? Is it a positive environment? All the benefits that we all know can exist in sport, how do we make that practical? I think one of the biggest challenges in safe sport is we do need to move beyond policies. I'm not saying policies aren't important, and usually those policies are a little bit more reactive than proactive. But how do we make it tangible so that the grassroots coach knows what they should be doing and how to communicate with athletes? And I guess I'm looking for a little bit more practical advice on how to implement. I'm going to throw a word that Dina loves know, changing culture. And how do we do that?
[00:16:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I think, like I mentioned earlier, we focus on breaking it down into almost those three levels with the implementation, activation and education. And the reason we do that is, as you mentioned, we want to target all the stakeholders within sports at all levels and we need to make it more tangible and easy to understand, and that's often what I do when I work with clients. So if it's implementation, which is that organization, club level, we break it down to how do we do that? So we often talk about four pillars at that level. We talk about the policies and procedures. So just because you have a policy doesn't mean you're actually putting into practice. So we talk about that, then we talk about communication and engagement. So it's more than just putting your policies or your safe sport commitment on your website, right? Do you have psas? Are you having webinars? Is it integrated into your coaching or official clinics? Are you having giveaways? Like, there's more ways to engage and communicate? Then we talk about education and training.
There's amazing training out there. But what else are you doing? Are you having it as part of your onboarding? Again, integrating into clinics, are you providing best practices or targeted sessions? And then resources and best practices. So we have one pagers or graphics or little bag tags or backstop signs, really kind of ways to kind of bring it down to the ground level. So that's our implementation. And at that point, it really needs to be part of your strategic plan or your operational plan. Again, that's being intentional, but then we take it down to that next level of activation. So that's where we talked about. It's mostly coaches, but they're support staff officials, the ones on the ground, and that's really where that practice comes in. So it's about creating that environment and how you create it. We talk about open and observable electronic communication. We teach a little bit around bystander intervention, disclosure, duty to report, and then we go through real life scenarios, because that's where they need to know if this happens, what do I do? So we really talk through those, and then, as Dina said, we bring in the true sport principles, right? So that they can understand what that environment looks like, what they're trying to create, that culture that is needed on the ground level. And then we break it down into the education piece, right? And again, this is often for the athletes and their parents and guardians and talk more about what is safe sport, what does it actually mean to them, what is maltreatment, but also what is bullying and harassment? Because we often talk about that power imbalance between a person and an authority and an athlete. But there is so much that also goes on peer to peer. So we talk about that peer to peer relationship. We talk about the car ride home, even, and then we educate again around bystander intervention because they have a large role in that. As athletes, we talk about reporting, we provide some best practices and guidelines. We tie in true sport. And then we also talk a little bit about what is not safe sport, what are just coaching decisions, what are just part of the game. And I think that's where we see the impact. Is that safe sport doesn't have to be big and scary. It can just be part of our everyday routine. And that's where I think I'm seeing the shift with clients when we hold these sessions and when we work with their different stakeholders. Is that safe sports? A little easier to digest on the proactive side, and it's a little bit more tangible when we can put it in their hands. We can break it down into what it looks like on the ground in these tangible ways.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: I'm so happy to hear you express that. The way my mind works is I build things in my head, and when someone comes to me with a project or an idea, I've got a vision in my mind what that looks like. And I'm very confident. Kristen, based on that explanation, you've built a very good.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: I can, I can feel that. Know, Kristen, like, your face lights up when you talk about this. You can feel like, we see you, we get the privilege of seeing you right now. And for our listeners, your obvious commitment and passion to this is palpable. I wonder, what is it that you most enjoy about this work as we prepare to say goodbye? It feels like you're self actualizing when you talk about this. At least that's what you're communicating to us.
[00:21:02] Speaker C: I love sport and I want everyone to have that positive experience because I know the good in sport and I really, truly believe that everybody deserves that and that it can bring so much. So for me, it's really helping all organizations at any level to be able to provide that, because that's what we want. That's what we want for us. That's what we want for our kids, for the future. And I really do love it. Yeah.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much, Kristen. There's a saying that says when we know better, hopefully we're inspired, motivated, rewarded to do better. And with your little formula here, my sense is that our clients and sport leaders are really well served to spend a little bit of time helping demystify, decomplexify their commitment to take these policies, these commitments to the next level and feel supported by having a sage advisor, a guide to help them feel a little less isolated and also more confident that they're doing the right thing. This is not just a one and done right. This is a new way of being really that is so much more aligned with I think our shared values and that vision that you were speaking to earlier, Steve, about Sportopia. What does Sportopia look like, sound like, feel like? Well, it sounds a lot like what we've been talking about today. So in the episodes note below you're going to find some sport law blogs where you can find more information related to this really great conversation today. Thank you, Kristen. Thank you so much to all of our listeners. We're really grateful to share this vision we have of Sportopia as we look to elevate sport.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: As always, to have your say in Sporttopia, email us at hello at Sportlaw, CA or on social media at Sportlaw, CA to let us know what you want to hear about next. Please stay tuned for our next episode.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: And until then, be well.
