Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indig at sport law.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker C: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:39] Speaker C: Today we have Andrew Poulton, the vice president of sectors with Markel Canada, joining us. Earlier this year, we launched an exciting new collaboration with Markel to provide legal and leadership support to policyholders. This innovative partnership will enhance the experience for clients, reduce risks, and ensure a safer experience for participants. We'll be discussing some of the key aspects of this exciting new offer. But before we do, Steve, what is coming across your desk this week?
[00:01:08] Speaker A: A little bit of the same, but maybe some of the new.
So this episode of our podcast will be released October 8, and that'll be about two weeks before the ONCA compliance deadline. So we are getting a lot of ONCA compliant requests to update bylaws, to file their articles of amendments. And then it's a good thing Andy's here, because I'm going to blame him for all the new waiver work that we're getting through their insurance policyholders asking for support to mitigate their risk with respect to the sports that they're providing. And also coming with some really interesting queries about accommodations where some people require a compensation or an accommodation to be able to participate in sport. And then how does that align with the risk factor, with the activity? So lots of new, exciting things happening, Dina, along with the old stuff. And, of course, the very important onco compliance deadline of October 21. What's new with you?
[00:02:14] Speaker C: Well, as always, it feels like it's 180 degrees from some of the really good stories that you're always sharing. I. There's a few cool things that are happening, but the one that I'm going to share here is we just connected, Loren and I, one of our team members, with a CEO of a national support organization who's calling us about some tension between their coaches, their coaching staff, and during the games. It's such a pressure cooker leading up to the games and then in the games and this tension that you kind of tolerate before the big show, you come back exhausted, and even if you've had an extraordinary games, you're just left wondering, do I really want to work with these people?
So, you know, part of what Loren and I do is we normalize that. We normalize that unless you're actually actively working on your team, strengthening the relationship, designing your alliance, having the courageous conversations, letting people know what your communication preferences.
You have no tolerance when you're exhausted and when deadlines are looming. So I'm just so thrilled because we're going to be spending some meaningful time with this group. Helping the coaching staff do some repair work and then really setting them up for success. That's part of what we love to do. So there's some, you know, mea culpas, some self awareness work that needs to be done and then there's space for them to learn how to develop and strengthen their leadership skills. So I'm very excited about that. Maybe now we'll turn it over to you. Andrew, we're so pleased to have you join us today. Maybe we'll start with what's coming across your desk.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: Okay, well thanks Steve and Dean, I'm delighted to join you today and thanks very much for having me.
I was coming across my desk this week. Well, I've just come back from two weeks of holiday with my family lucky enough to go to the south of France, which was beautiful.
I can't say I did a huge amount of relaxation because I've got four young kids. So I wasn't sat by the pool on the beach with my feet up. I spent more time on my feet walking around or running around than I normally do.
[00:04:36] Speaker C: But that's why you look fitter.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: Well, yeah. Actually, you know what? I think holiday had the opposite effects on me. I think I might have lost a few pounds rather than gaming. I was more active than what I normally am. But no, it was great. And, you know, recognize that everyone has to take that downtime, spend good quality time. So I really loved it. But I came back, I think more exhausted than I was before I went away. But it's all good. But yeah, so everyone knows what it's like coming back from couple of weeks away. First two or three days really just catching up, trying to make sense of the hundreds of emails in my inbox.
But what was really great was to see some really fantastic progress we've made with the play team at Markel Canada. So we've been really pushing hard in terms of developing our marketing materials to support some of what we're talking about here today and also some important work we've been doing on our rate model for play as well. Which again I'll touch a bit more on as we further the conversation. And yeah, also just listening to and watching meeting recordings back to try and catch up and make sense of what has been going on in the last two weeks. But, you know, thankfully, the team, as always, have done a fantastic job in terms of keeping things moving forward. We're having a good year, so we're really pleased about that. So, yeah, that's been my kind of last four days post two weeks of chaotic vacation in France. So, yeah, I don't know about you.
[00:06:01] Speaker C: Steve, but I'm like, you know, the world's smallest violin is playing.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: I was just going to say there's zero, zero sympathy for the Andy spent in the south of France.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not seeking sympathy, just, yeah, but, yeah, no, I can't complain. It was great.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Andy, I've had a working relationship with Markel for over a decade through yourself and Brenda and some other colleagues, and we've now entered into a formal partnership.
So I guess I have a two part question is, why would an insurance company come to an organization like ours and ask to partner? And then how does that, of course, segue into the Markel play product?
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question, Stephen.
Why does a company, insurance company like Markel come to specialists and experts such as yourself with such a long standing and fantastic reputation in the sports sector? I mean, Markel, we try to position ourselves as specialist insurers, and that's not just in Canada, but globally as well. So the important thing for us is we like to be close to our customers. And as part of that, what we'd like to do, or what we endeavor to do in a lot of cases, particularly in niche areas such as sport, or in other areas such as care and non profit organizations, is work with organizations that have close and intimate relationships with those organizations that we insure, because we're also pretty honest with ourselves in as much that we think we know an organization by virtue of providing them insurance, but we probably don't know them as intimately as what we think we do a lot of times. So working with organizations such as yourself, we feel, offers us a greater insight into those customers, what they need, what they value from an insurer, but also just to ensure that we can continue to deliver value and be applicable, I think, to them as an insurer and hopefully more than an insurer. So, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, working with industry partners and experts such as yourself is really important to our kind of longer term approach.
You know, when we talk about specialist.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: Sectors for Markel, this all started, Andy, with a lunch with some of your colleagues, like I said, over ten years and we've been having those conversations for ten years, and I think five of those were procurement processes.
[00:08:37] Speaker C: But, hey, Steve, sometimes things take a little while to marinate. So we're just thrilled that we have this relationship now.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: No, absolutely. Andy knows I'm teasing him. And the outcome of this relationship, Andy. And part of the big push within Markel is the Markel play product. Do you want to address that a little bit about what that means to our listeners and the product available to them?
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
I do apologize. It took us a lot longer than what we would have originally liked. And, yeah, the procurement process was, I would say, predictably difficult. Right. So, you know, but we got there and we're really delighted that we.
[00:09:21] Speaker C: Those lawyers, eh, Andy?
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. What a pain in the back.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: I digress.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So, I mean, in terms of, you know, our products, if we, if we talk about it, I mean, it's two parts now, really. So, you know, traditionally, as a lot of insurers do, they offer a mechanism to transfer risk. Right. So our play insurance products, up until only a few months ago, really was a mechanism to transfer risk. We provided liability coverage, we provided property coverage, we provided key liability coverages, such as abuse liability, commercial, general liability.
But the development of the product, in terms of what we've done now in partnership with yourselves, is to introduce a suite of value added services, as we refer to them at Markel.
And that really is to enable our customers to access the services and expertise that you offer to your customers on a day to day basis. And that's embedded into their insurance products. So what we're trying to position that as is more than just an insurance policy. It's actually a policy or a product that that client can engage with more than just on an annual basis and utilize that to help manage and mitigate risk.
And hopefully, in turn, potentially might save them some money, not just in terms of loss mitigation, but also in terms of any outsourced costs that they were spending to do some of the things that we are offering them access to with yourselves. So that's our end game.
The two things that really, I kind of hinge on when we talk about what we've introduced with our partnership are two words, really, value and longevity.
They're the two things that really spring to mind. As I said, we want to move just away from our product being an annual transaction that they might interact with once a year when they're renewing their policy, or they're placing it as a new piece of business via an insurance broker, or they're interacting with us in the event of a loss, we want to really build a long term relationship with those clients. We want them to engage with us, engage with sport law via their broker, but also to add that value to the broker and client relationship with ourselves as well. And hopefully that value will continue to deliver for many years to come.
And the other piece to that, as I said, was longevity.
Markel Canada have been insuring small organizations in Canada for over 20 years, so we've already got pretty good longevity. But a longer term vision is to be doing that for the same amount of time into the future. But in order to be able to do that, we recognise that some of these organisations or a lot of these organizations need support and need help, and they've had a pretty rough ride over the last few years in terms of some of the adverse and negative press, what's been in the media, but we also recognize that there is upskilling and support that they need in order to be able to deliver safe sport to their participants. But the term longevity really means that if we continue to improve those organizations risk management and mitigation, that's going to enable us to offer longevity in terms of pricing stability, in terms of the coverage that we can offer and be a constant and consistent insurer in the sector for the next 20 years. And that's really important to us and we feel is really important to those organizations as well because that gives them stability that they're looking for in uncertain times. So that's really our kind of vision as a whole.
[00:13:10] Speaker C: I just love that you had me at we are more than just an insurance, you know, policy, right? Like you really care about your policyholders and I think that that's when we started to take the conversation to the next level. I remember feeling really inspired by this shared vision of wanting to be proactive and be compassionate and forward thinking. So we're really excited, Andy, about this collaboration because, you know, we feel it's a reflection of our values, which are delivery and empathy and stewardship. And so we feel like we're aligning this partnership is really an alignment of our values. And when to hear you say that you're really in this as a value added service to the clients, so that we ideally not just reduce the risk, but that we can eliminate some of them with these forward thinking, proactive solutions that will help to ensure a positive experience for all the participants. So just really wanting to express our deep gratitude, right, for the ability to work alongside you to do some of that newer approach, right. To a more modern sports system. So for the people that are listening today. Can we. Maybe you can describe some of the tangible benefits outside of Markel play. Like what are some of the things that people can expect who might be a policyholder?
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just to touch on what you just said, Dina, and you're right and grateful for the, you know, the praise and the positive feedback but honestly it's, you know, we see it a lot of times as a privilege to be involved in a sector like sport and play in Canada because we really recognize how important that is to the communities in which those organizations serve. You know, I have a sporting background myself. You know, it was really formative in my early years in terms of helping shape me as a person. So, you know, we really value that and to be, you know, it's more than just words on a page for us and we really want to deliver those services and offer that support. So whilst it's, you know, it's, it's really great to hear that feedback but we truly are invested and, you know, we really value the partnership and what we can hopefully deliver to those organizations in terms of the tangible benefits. And it's funny when, when we talk about tangible benefits, when we talk about insurance because, you know, and colleagues of mine and I kind of laugh about this all the time because we work in a, you know, a service that a lot of what we deliver is completely intangible and we laugh, you know, sometimes we share jokes with each other that we'd really love to work in an industry where we produce a product and we can physically hand a product to someone because that would be really rewarding. But actually, you know, when we talk about the value added services that we're bringing in we really do think they're tangible. So that's really refreshing for us as insurance people to feel that we are delivering something that really has value and is tangible to those clients. So that's really rewarding for us as a starting point. The big things that we're trying to deliver with the services that we've built with ourselves talk about risk mitigation and management. But we think it goes deeper than that. Obviously we want to help those organisations reduce their risk, reduce their exposure to potential catastrophic losses. You know, that has benefits for us and that has benefits for those organisations as well in terms of the longevity of their organisations, their loss ratios which will ultimately impact how much they're paying for those insurance policies which, you know, that in an immediate timeframe can have a real big benefit in terms of cost saving. But when we talk about what they're doing day to day.
Steve mentioned it earlier. Waivers.
We've done an analysis from our own perspective in terms of our own loss history and looked at the potential saving that those organizations could have made in terms of dollar values and from an insurer perspective, in terms of if in the event of a loss that was reported and paid, if they'd had a defensible or defendable waiver in place, how much dollars that could have saved. And it was a really eye popping amount of money actually, in terms of the timeframe in which we did it. So if we think about that, just purely from a waivers perspective, how much potential there is for improvement, how much those organisations probably invest already by engaging with third party legal counsel to review those waivers that they have in place, there's an immediate impact there for those organizations that lean heavily on that in terms of risk mitigation and how they manage that risk. But also going beyond that, I mean, in terms of the access to the consultancy and giving them access to industry experts such as yourself, to be able to talk to them, to be able to talk to someone who knows what they're talking about, understands the challenges, talks the same language, understands the landscape in which they're operating. And that really complements also the broker relationship and the broker support that is offered to those organizations as well. And then I guess lastly, in terms of looking forward, you know, Steve and Dina, we've talked a lot about this in terms of how we continue to shape and develop and enhance what we do. So what we've, you know, what we've launched recently is, you know, is version number one. We want to continue to improve it. We want to continue to listen to our customers and listen to, you know, our colleagues and partners at sport law to continue to deliver value that is relevant, relevant to them and continue to improve it. So I think it's really exciting what we've done, and I'm really excited actually looking forward in terms of how we can continue to improve it.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: What I like, Andy, about what you said, it's something we've seen with some other clients where we really just have a relationship with them, where we're there as needed. And sport being a volunteer led sector, people are placed in situations or legal situations where they're not prepared to manage and where I've personally seen a lot of successes, as you've said, the conversation, they just want to talk it through, have somebody there who has knowledge in the sector to be able to talk it through and a lot of times their ideas are right. They're in the right direction, but they're just unsure. So I love this relationship. We share a lot of clients through your policyholders and our clients. So there's a lot of synergies. And to create that place where people can come on a pro bono basis in some respects and ask those queries, I do think it's a win win.
[00:20:03] Speaker C: Steve, you have me smiling. I remember the story. I think it was about a month ago, and you called me for something else, but you said, one of our clients called you, and you said, hello, and then you were silent for the 55 minutes, and then the client said, thank you. That was so helpful.
Often they just need somebody to vent to in a. In a safe container, in a confidential container. So I giggle at that, because, you know, Andy, as much as we are, we have this deep body of knowledge and wisdom. And I think a lot of our clients come to us because they know we care. So we can provide a good sounding board. But beyond that, they really trust that when they call us that we'll be able to not just give them a regurgitated legal opinion or leadership insight. We're actually going to ask them, what do you think? What do you already know? And it's such a helpful move to be able to know you can call someone and know that they get you and that they know that you care.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And I think we all need that. Right. So no matter what capacity you're working in, I think we all need that. But, I mean, and, Steve, you made a really relevant point that I think it's forgotten that in a lot of cases, people, from a ball perspective, or whether or not they're being a volunteer coach, they're volunteers. So they're doing it in their own time, uncompensated for it, probably. In a lot of cases. I know from my own experience, being a volunteer football coach or soccer coach, that we, you know, actually, it ends up costing us money. Right. To do it because we just want to do it because we're impassioned to do it. And actually giving those people the support that they might not necessarily be getting because the infrastructure is not there or they just haven't had that guidance previously, really, really matters.
And that's why it's really important for us to be able to deliver that access to them with yourselves. And, you know, and I think hopefully, that in the long term, will make a real, meaningful difference.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Oh, I totally agree, Andy. I've said this, and Dina knows this, that when I first started working for sport law 22 years ago, I always thought I would transition this role into becoming a CEO of an NSO or a PSO and come to realize really quickly that taking on those roles requires about 68 different hats and expertise in 48 different things. And it's a very challenging thing. So I am not sure I'm looking forward, not sure I still want to take on that responsibility, but it's very nice to have somebody that you can talk to and talk things through.
I wonder, Andy, if there's some trends in the insurance industry that you can share with our listeners to keep them up to date on what's happening in sport to put their finger on the pulse with respect to changes or other requirements that may be necessary from an insurance perspective.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, from a, you know, I guess I could segment the question, really to talk about kind of what we're seeing or experiencing from, you know, from a loss perspective. So in terms of claims that we've seen in terms of those trends, but also then just generally what's happening or what we're experiencing in the insurance market that may impact the organizations in which we insure and your clients. So we have seen in recent years, an increase in frequency and severity of lawsuits and claims arising out sport related injuries. We've seen compensation for those injuries increase, thankfully, not to the levels that we're seeing across the border in the US, but definitely we've seen an increase in terms of frequency and severity of kind of severe, very serious sport related injury claims. Those claims, and unfortunately, from our experiences with some of our insured organizations, have had financial and some reputational damage across the industry. So that's something that we've seen, again, an increase of in recent years. But we've also seen a real, and we're talking about this, and this is kind of what it's all about. But we're seeing a huge increase in terms of demand, an expectation for sport organizations to adopt and implement best practices and standards of care, which means from an insurer's standpoint, we're asking more questions. Or if you're a diligent insurer in this space, that we're asking more questions. We're asking for more information. We're asking more about how they manage their risk, how they're mitigating against risk, which obviously all the business that we do is through an insurance broker. So we're going to that insurance broker, and if we don't, that might be an existing client of ours. And the response is, well, you didn't ask for this information. Two years ago. Why are you asking for it all now? And that's really partly driven by the increase in loss activity that we've seen in terms of severity. But also just being as a specialist insurer in this sector, we're very aware of the increase in those demands in terms of those organizations. So we're asking for a lot more information in terms of how organizations are managing their risk to talk about the insurance market a little bit because obviously that's relevant to some of the listeners. I'm sure we're in a slightly unusual market where a couple of years ago or 18 months ago, maybe even as recently as twelve months ago in certain areas, we would have called it what we define as a hard market. So a hard market would have seen increase in rates which subsequently increase insurance premiums, potentially reduction capacity being offered in terms of limits of liability to organizations for liability coverages. And now we're kind of moving from that more definitely move from that to a market that's a little bit softer. So in insurance terms we call it transitioning market from hard to soft and it's certainly softer in certain areas than others. But we've seen definitely this year we've seen increased competition from a premium perspective in terms of some of our insurance policies. The important thing for us is stability and I'll go back to that word that I used earlier in terms of longevity. We've been insuring organisations in sport in Canada for a long time. We plan to do it for a very long time going forward. So rate stability and what we call rate adequacy is really important to us and that's something we're very focused on to make sure that we can be consistent and not give those clients huge fluctuations in premium that they may have experienced in recent years. And that all ties back to the risk management and mitigation support and that guidance and consultancy that we're now offering as part of our insurance product, because ultimately if a risk or an insured organization performs better from a loss ratio perspective, so that loss ratio crudely is calculated on premium versus how many claims have been paid to, that's going to ensure that their premium is more stable. And that's important.
We're not the only third party cost that small organizations have. We fully recognize that there is competition and when organizations are forecasting their finances for the year, they probably want to have a fair degree of confidence that their insurance costs are going to remain fairly stable as their revenues increase or decrease. So that's really important to us to ensure that we can deliver consistency and stability in terms of our pricing.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: You know what I like, Andy, is when you start asking those questions about, show me this policy, show me this procedure, and I understand that it could be onerous for a club to be able to do that. Or it's like you said something we didn't ask for two years ago, but I like to be involved with people who are also organized and have their risk management in place. But also, if they don't, I know in working with our partnership, we are starting to create those tools. When we ask the questions, we're actually going to give them the answer.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's it. And I think it's interesting. When I talk to our underwriters within our sector teams, it's quite great. They've got a really comprehensive policy. Okay, what does that mean? So it's great having those policies, but the important part, I think, is how it's implemented and how it's put into those kind of day to day operations. So having the best policy in the world for managing risk is words on a page. It's really what the actions and how they're implemented. And that's one of the things that we're really excited to bring in with yourselves is, okay, well, we've got this fantastic risk management policy to just give it a broad definition. Okay, well, how do we work with you and how do we help you now implement that into your operations and how you deliver that, those services, those activities to your participants day to day?
So, yeah, I think asking for the information is one thing. Understanding what it means and understanding how it's implemented, I think should hold equal importance when we're, when we're looking at those policies and documents and asking for that information.
[00:29:38] Speaker C: I've really appreciated this conversation. And it's, you know, for me, I'm like, oh, we've, we're actually making insurance fun. I'm sure listeners are going to be going, wow, I remember, Steve, that, that client that asked you to review their, their insurance contract, and then, you know, you did all your due diligence, it kept you up at night, and then you turned to page 60 and it.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Said, this policy is excluded from sporting activity.
I wish I had skipped to the last page.
[00:30:12] Speaker C: Right?
So, you know what I think this points to is we live in a VUCa world, right? It's volatile, it's uncertain, it's complex, and it's ambiguous. And when we're in this VUCA world, we want to come back to trust and stability and have clarity. You know, Brene Brown says clear as kind. So I love that what you're helping to do here is demystify some of these very complex realities. And beyond just the legal test of the must dos, I'm also appreciating, Andy, that Markel play is going to help us move towards ethical practice.
Beyond the must dos. We actually need to move into the space of the ought to do. Because the experience, the lived experience of these participants, the vast majority of which are children. Right. Your children, our children are demanding that the experience is safe and welcoming and inclusive. So by providing those proactive, you call them risk mitigation strategies, they're actually heartfelt.
They ought to be the common practice. But in this VUCA world, relying on the shoulders of these volunteers who are so well intentioned but exhausted and have full time jobs, the system itself needs to be reimagined. And I think we're going to be part of that re imagining. So, you know, my appreciation for the conversation is a deep reminder that beyond risk management, we want to ensure that we are managing by our values. If we do that, we're going to mitigate the risk or at least reduce the likelihood that it will come to pass. That when we make this commitment to live and lead in alignment with our values, our community, even if we make a mistake and we apologize for it and we look to right the wrongs that we've done, there's going to be some level of empathy, right, if people feel that you are genuine and authentic in your leadership expression. So I'm really grateful, actually to have participated in this conversation. And I think, Steve, you want to have the last word?
[00:32:32] Speaker A: I just wanted Andy to be able to share how policyholders can access the Markel play program.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: Okay, well, and first and foremost, as I mentioned earlier, I mean, all of our business is done via insurance brokers, right? So a lot of your listeners will have an insurance broker they've been working with for many years. And we really value and respect those broker relationships that they have and that we have. So the first way that they can access the Markel pay program is speak to their insurance broker.
So if they're nothing, if they're not placed with Markel, I'd encourage them to have a conversation with their broker and say, if I'm not, why am I not? Can we have a conversation with them? Because they really seem to know what they're talking about and doing. And the answer to that is we do.
So that's the first thing. I mean, if they're a current policyholder of Markel play policy, then also speak to your broker. So ask them. I'm in short of Markel. I'm a small organization. Do I have access to the services that Markel play are now offering in conjunction with sport law? Because the answer to that is they will, and they just need to ask us for policyholders that are already engaged with it, of which we've already seen a really strong interest from our insured policyholders. We've got very clear communication as to how they access it. Just reach out and speak to us and we will subsequently put you in touch with our friends at sport law and the relationship is then started. So the easiest message speak to your broker because they're the people that we deal with day to day.
[00:34:08] Speaker C: So yeah, great question, Steve.
[00:34:12] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, Steve.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: It happens once in a while.
[00:34:17] Speaker C: In the episode notes below you'll find some Sportlaw blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. Thank you so much to our listeners. We're so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you as we all look to elevate sport.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: As always, to have your say in Sportopia, email us at Helloportlaw, CA or on social media at Sportlawca to let us know what you want to hear about next. Stay tuned for our next episode. Thanks Deana and Andy.
[00:34:46] Speaker C: Until then, be well.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. Thank you.
