Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indig at Sport Law. Leave me a message, I'll get back.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: To you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker C: Hey Steve, it's Deana. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:48] Speaker C: Today we have Tracy Vyoncourt joining us to discuss mental wellness and bullying in sport. Tracy holds the Canada Research Chair in School Based Mental Health and Violence Prevention. She's a full professor in counseling psychology at the University of Ottawa. Tracy, welcome. We're really excited to have you here on Sportopia. And before we get to our conversation, Steve, what's coming across your desk this week?
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Today I want to talk about not a lot work wise, Dina, but more about what we do and why we do it. I had a call yesterday from a sport leader who had left sport for probably close to a decade and is back 10 years later. Her passion is in sport and she wants to be involved in sport and one of the things she said was if I would volunteer in it, I will do it. And it was all sport related. And we just started talking about people and you know, she asked me the question, you know, do you still like what you're doing? And of course sometimes what we deal with is very heavy. Depends on the day, depends on the day and it always comes back to, well, I love the people. I love the people and the motivation that brings people to sport to see people succeed and again, not necessarily winning medals but just achieving. And that's why I'm excited for Tracy to be here to talk about, you know, the mental side of sport, maybe the bad side of abuse and harassment. But myself being involved in sport as a athlete, coach, official and professional for 30 plus years, I always go back and look at not necessarily how I did medal wise or placing wise, but just the great experiences that we had. So I really, it was, it was a good reflection with this sport leader to talk about why we do what we do and I thought that was really, really cool. And aha moment. Sometimes you get so caught up in the day to day business per se that we forget sometimes why we do this. So what's new with you, Dina?
[00:02:49] Speaker C: Well, I just want to double down on that, Steve. We're a bit like a hotel California in sport, right? Just when you think you know you can leave, you never can. There's something so palpable about, about sport and I think in Part you just spoke to it. It's the human connection. It's setting a goal together and then working day in, day out to achieve that goal, putting it all on the line. And that, that's what certainly keeps me enamored with the sport experience. I think this week it's a bit of a harder week because I'm accompanying a client through a very difficult journey and I'm witnessing a lot of grief, a lot of pain, a lot of frustration, a lot of anger. And at the same time, these leaders are so resolved to trust that they can get through this. They come to me usually in a crisis and then so I'm helping them understand what happened. We're doing a debrief of the situation. I'm having conversations with people who've left to better understand their lived experience and what would it take to restore health and maybe start to increase their trust meter.
And often what people need is a forum to share their lived experience, to not feel judged and feel safe in explaining what happened to them. And so while it's heavy work, I also always feel so privileged to be able to work alongside people and create that space where part of the healing can occur, when they can, you know, give voice to their experience. So. So yeah, that's what's coming across my desk right now. And so, Tracy, welcome. We're really delighted to have you here.
So maybe tell us a little bit more about yourself and what is coming across your desk this week.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: So I'm a professor, as you mentioned, and a Tier 1 Canada Research Chair. So the bulk of my time is devoted to doing research. But I'm also a high performance coach. So I coach for Ontario. I'm a provincial coach usually. I do the U17 girls team. I've also been involved with the past two Canada Games. And I also study the abuse of referees. I'm on the technical advisory committee for Ontario Soccer. So I put my time and energy in that.
What other hats do I wear? I'm a coach facilitator for Ontario soccer and for Canada Soccer. So I feel like I'm involved in all aspects of sports from athletes to officials to administrators and the like. In terms of what's coming across my desk, well, I'm finishing up a book that is coming out. It's being published by Simon and Schuster. It's called Mean. So I'm knee deep right now in finishing up the book. It's about women's interpersonal relationships, aggression and competition. So it's like right at the front of my thought all the time. And have a lot of sports examples. Of course I can't avoid sports examples. So anyhow, that's what I'm up to.
[00:05:48] Speaker C: I love that. Well, I mean, I love that you're a sister author because I birthed. This was my second book and it's an all in experience putting yourself into the written page. And I know I transformed as a result of finding my way through the story. I discovered things about myself that I didn't know. Was that your experience as well, Tracy?
[00:06:10] Speaker B: So the books are probably a little bit different from the ones that you've written, which I've enjoyed. I find that it's like one thing I was surprised is how much I know. Like, because a lot of times I think there's a lot of women and maybe some men have this too, but I have like a healthy case of imposter syndrome. So I often think, well, you know, do I really know anything? Should I really be speaking on this topic? And I was actually pleasantly surprised. Like how the 25 years that I've been doing this has actually stuck in my brain and I actually do know what I'm talking about. So that was one part I didn't expect. I think I would. I thought I'd have more self doubt, but I kind of. It's the opposite where I feel like, yeah, no, I should be speaking about this.
[00:06:54] Speaker C: Yeah, beautiful.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: I think we all feel that way. Tracy, I know you and I were speaking pre, pre recording here about some of the presentations we do in public. And a lot of times they'll read your resume or your bio and you'll. And I know when they read mine, I listen and I go, wow, that sounds pretty impressive. I wonder who that guy is.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: And sometimes, yeah, it's nice to know we do feel like we're confident in what we're speaking about. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about bullying. What is it? How does it differ from harassment? I know internally here at Sport Law, we talked a lot about the difference between, or maybe even the similarities between harassment and conduct issues.
But I want you to focus, if you can, on bullying and is it rampant in sport?
[00:07:43] Speaker B: So bullying is a systematic abuse of power. In academia, we use a very specific definition that encompasses negative behavior directed at a person who has less power than the person who's aggressing against them. So the power differential is really what differentiates bullying from other. All other forms of aggression because it's a systematic abuse of that power differential. And it happens over and over again, but it doesn't have to. Sometimes just the fear of it happening again can be the repetition component.
So, and then the other component of the definition is that it's intentional.
Now, that differs from harassment just in terms of legalities. And I think, Steve, you're a lawyer, right? So harassment's really a legal term.
You know, in high school, a lot of times kids don't want to. Or teenagers don't want to say that they're engaging in bullying. They think that's a kids term, and so they'll use the term harassment. Another context in the workplace, a lot of times it's called harassment and not bullying. There are no laws against bullying per se, although some of it will fall into the category of harassment. But harassment has a very specific legal meaning, and it typically encompasses discrimination, for example, racial or sexual discrimination.
It typically occurs in the context of workplace. But I think that harassment can be bullying, and some bullying can be harassment.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: What are you seeing, Tracy, in the sports sector when we talk? I guess we can talk about either one or you can. You can pick one and narrow it down if you wish. But are we seeing ample amounts of bullying harassment? Is it. Is it an epidemic? Where's your research? What have you. What are you learning on the topic?
[00:09:38] Speaker B: I think that it is. So sports, a really interesting area because I study bullying across all contexts. So I have a really broad perspective of what this looks like in the workplace between peers in sport and the like. And I think that in a lot of ways, sport is the wild, wild west of bullying. I think we have a better grip on what's happening in other contexts. There's a recognition that this causes harm, that it needs to be reduced. But for some reason in sport, it persists. And it persists for a variety of reasons. But I think one of the main reasons it persists is because a lot of people assume it's just part of the game, that this is something that we're going to tolerate, even though it's really intolerable. And that needs to change. This whole zeitgeist on, you know, there's a special place in sport for this type of behavior, I think really needs to be removed from our. Our viewpoint. So I do think it's more problematic in sport. I do think that there's a greater recognition now of the abuse of athletes. I don't think that that has been extended to other groups as much. So there's a big spotlight right now on the abuse of athletes, and a lot of it is coming from prominent athletes speaking out about their experiences. I think that there's a poor recognition that coaches also get bullied. And I know Dean and I have spoken to about this a lot, that there's a lot of coaches who get ganged up on and are treated poorly. I know from our study, we have one, I think, but I don't think. I know. We have the largest study in Canada on referee abuse. We have two waves of data. We're starting another study that just got funded through the Canadian Institutes of Health research on youth referee referee abuse. But in our study, 94% of the referees that we. That are participants in our study. So that's over 1100 referees in Ontario, Saskatchewan and British Columbia, 94% said that they were verbally abused, and 35% said that they were physically abused as referees. We don't see those rates in any other context.
[00:11:49] Speaker C: Yeah, it reminds me, Tracy. I have three children, and when they were, you know, teenagers, they were looking for jobs. And I naturally, because they were all athletic, they were all involved in sport, we were involved in sport as coaches and managers. So we just naturally assumed that our kids would start refereeing. And all three of them said, why would I referee, Mom? I don't want to be yelled at. Screamed at.
[00:12:15] Speaker B: Yeah, fair point. And it's interesting. So it's really difficult to get a CIHR grant in Canada. You're going up against the best health professionals, you know, vying for very limited dollars from our federal government. And yet our. Our grant was ranked right at the top. And I think people inherently understood those that were reviewing it that this is a problem. So this is, for a lot of kids in Canada, it's their first job, and their first job is where they're being abused. The kids in our study. So we have a few youth. We have about 300 youth that are age 16 and above. They said that, like, in 99% of cases, it's adults that are abusing them as referees. That's called child abuse. Right. So we're talking about definitional challenges or differences, nuances, between harassment and bullying. Well, when an adult abuses a child, we call that child abuse in every other context, right?
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Yeah. It's almost shocking, Steve.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: And it is. It's so incredulous.
[00:13:21] Speaker C: And we. And we witness it. So I remember a few times when. The very few times when I wasn't on the other side of the bench coaching, that I would. I would stand up and I'd be that person to go in and tap that person on the shoulder and say, do you realize that you're yelling at a 16 year old ref.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't say that I've been perfect in that area. I'm not saying that I'm following a 14 year old to the parking lot, but in my past, like when I first started coaching, it was so normative to just challenge every decision that refs were making without really concentrating on the fact that these are young people just learning their craft. And I think I'm a really reasonable person who again, studies this and is conscientious. And if I'm falling to this behavior, then you could imagine that it's pretty rampant across the spectrum, right?
[00:14:17] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: It's interesting. Dina, as the two of you are talking, I'm thinking about my own experiences and my son's. So I, I officiated basketball for, for years and there was some great experiences and, and less so other times. And, and sometimes we would know walking into an environment to put our, our bags and our stuff near the back door exit so when the game was over we could get out really quickly and not have to face the post game conversation. I'm watching my son now. He's officiating, he's umpiring baseball. But he's, he's 12, he just turned 13. And the games he's doing are the U8, U9 level. And to be quite honest with you, it's a little bit of the opposite. And I'm, I'm not trying to take away from the conversation at all, but the parents have been really good with him and teasing him and having a good time with him. So so far it's been a really positive experience. I do think the level that he's umpiring is very recreational and most of the parents recognize that their, their child is there for fun and, and not for medals. But I can, I can definitely see as, as the competition increases, so does probably that cultural aspect of, of officiating.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Steve, my, my first thought when you were talking about your son's experience was he must be officiating in a rec division. Put a competitive slant to that and common sense flies out the window. I do see that there's more kindness and there's also a selection effect too that happens like who sorts themselves into competitive versus non competitive sports, you know, and then there's the broader phenotype of that competitive edge that you get that is on full display. So I'm glad he's having a great experience most in the competitive stream or not.
[00:16:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I want to honor that and maybe take us into the focus on mental health in sport and how Important it is for us to. Again, there's something about sport where we use language like soldier on and be brave and be stoic and don't cry. And I think that's doing a disservice to the human experience. And it's. To your point, Tracy, it's conditioning people to tolerate, you know, maltreatment, right.
At its worst and even at its best, it's, it's not showing the full potential of humans interacting with each other in a, in a healthy way. So I guess our, I'd love to know a little bit from your perspective. There's an assumption here that mental health issues in sport is on the rise. And these, the indicators from participants and leaders is that they are becoming more educated so they're more aware of what's happening to them is not healthy, not safe, not needed. And we're using the term psychological safety to be able to describe what they ought to be entitled to as an athlete, as a coach, as an official, in, in the, in the game. So what's your take on the efforts being made today to bring more awareness and support to ensure that mental health in sport is, is a part of the game, not the exception, and maybe some recommendations that would help us reduce the risks to ensure that, you know, maltreatment isn't happening?
[00:17:32] Speaker B: It's a funny area that's kind of been neglected for far too long when I think about trying to get that winning edge. And if we just talk about it in the context of high performance sports. So they're trying everything, right? Like they're, you know, getting the best nutritionists on board, they're getting speed training coaches, like all of these, like really specialized individuals attached to the athlete to make sure that they have the best success or the team has the best success. And yet they're ignoring the one thing that would make these athletes truly their best, which is their social, emotional well being and their mental health. Right. And I've always wondered like, why that is. Like if you're trying to find an edge, have them feel good about themselves, have them feel, you know, safe enough to take risk. And all of those things that come along with risk, you know, you benefit because you've practiced something that others aren't practicing. So it's a funny area of neglect. So I think this is where to go. This is where the magic is. I always talk to teams, our best coaches that are coming through our program with Canada soccer and Ontario soccer about how I'm basically engaging them, trying to get them to buy in by saying you're going to win if you focus on social emotional development and psychological wellbeing. And it's a good way of doing it. I also talk about the neurobiology of it. Like I talk about the science behind how it really influences performance vis a vis, you know, reductions in cortisol and increases in testosterone, like all of those good things, how it works on working memory via, you know, all of these mechanisms, these biological mechanisms. And they seem, I'm hoping they're buying in. Who knows if it's going to translate into better behavior. But that really is where the magic is in the magic beyond just performance. So let's just say yeah, yeah, okay. So it's got to be more than just about performance. It's got about the human being 100%. It's always about their welfare and their well being. But the hook it's trying to get these individuals who've been kind of like, when you think about, look, I look around this like zoom meeting and we all look around the same age, we with our filters, we all still look around the same age.
Good looking bunch. But we were not raised in that environment. Right Steve? Right Dina? Like we were like, suck it up and get on with it. And you know, the tough coach was a good coach. It doesn't matter if they destroyed you on, at least you got to the podium. And that's changing and I love that it's changing and I love that athletes are demanding more and expecting better treatment.
All of those things are good. Now there's one issue with all of this though, and it needs to be addressed. So. And there's always an over correction when you swing the pendulum to, to the right side kind of thing. And the over correction is the idea now that we can't challenge athletes, that, that, you know, you can't expect any degree of resilience, that everything has to be placed in such a way or organized in such a way that it meets their needs without much stress or resistance. And that's not true. You still, you can still have expectations. They just need to be supported with kindness and appropriate age appropriate coaching strategies and the like. So I see that other side though all the time now where everything is called bullying and it's not. So there's this overcorrection that happens with trying to fix the wrong that we've all injured for far too long.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: Tracy, I'm wondering if you have an opinion on why coaches felt like yelling, screaming, intimidation was the road to success rather than all the positive things you've just spoken about. How did that become part of our coaching culture? Do you have any opinion on that?
[00:21:27] Speaker B: I think it's because it worked, right? Like, it actually, but it didn't work. The perception was that it worked. So I always. Anytime I give a talk on bullying and talk about this, they'll always be somebody who, you know, points out the Michael Jordans of the world who were just horrible to their teammates and, like, look how well they succeeded. Like, how many times did they win the NBA title and the like. So those are always used as examples for. To challenge what we're trying to change. And I always say, well, what if they were supposed to win 11 titles? Like, you know what I mean? Like, maybe, Steve, you were supposed to win eight gold medals at the Olympics and swimming and. And, like, so, like, yeah, that there was some success attached to it, but it might not be your ceiling of success, your top success. And so we need to be mindful of that. I also think that there's this perception that if you're engaged and screaming and, you know, really demanding, that you're involved and you're doing your job. And we get that from parents, right, Dina? Like, I know you were a soccer coach, and I was a soccer coach, and the coaches that we knew were quietly leading the parents didn't always, like, they always. They thought they weren't doing enough and that they were the wrong coach for their kid, and they would move their kids to a team where the coach was, in fact, abusing them. I scout for Ontario Soccer, and I get to see coaches from all, like, all different types of coaches, and there are still those screamers out there. And I just think, like, why are you paying this much money to have your kid treated poorly? But they grew up with that, and they thought that that was effective, and they have some anecdotal evidence to support their flawed viewpoint. So I understand why it. Why it's there.
[00:23:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's a. It's a really good question, Steve. From a management perspective, you know, we borrowed many of the terminologies, the tactics and the leadership style of military, so that corporate culture and ethos, the command and control, the. Follow me. When we talk about. Even the language around strategic planning, bullet points and targets and, you know, mission and vision and, you know, forget about values.
I think that has driven the ethos of a leadership style. And so if you are a more introverted, relational type leader, you aren't taken as seriously. And then if you compound that with gender. So as a female. Do you know how many times, Tracy, when the Ref would come to the pitch and he would see me. He was like, oh, can you let me know when the coach is here?
[00:24:02] Speaker B: Oh, 100%.
[00:24:03] Speaker C: I am the coach and I'm also the manager and the chief.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Boo.
[00:24:06] Speaker C: Boo Mender.
It is, I think we are seeing that giant shift, but it's important to come back to our roots. And as Tracy, you said to be really thoughtful and mindful about why we're at where we're at and to look at the environment and ask ourselves, does this make any sense as opposed to just drinking the Kool Aid. And I also appreciate that this next generation is actually pushing back. They are, I think, in many ways our teachers because they're telling us that what we tolerated for so long doesn't make sense. It isn't the kind and holistic approach. And it's. You might get something in the short term, but it isn't sustainable over time. This is where we see people burning out, right? Or people are leaving workplaces. Athletes are leaving far before their best before date. And when they do leave, they're exhausted. They don't want to go back and give back to their sport, which is really sad given that sport needs people to come back and serve in order for it to continue. So. So I love what you said and the challenging around the questions of, well, why are we doing it this way? And maybe 10 championships could have been converted to 12. Have we been a little bit more holistic and kinder in our approach?
[00:25:21] Speaker B: I have a hard time with it too, because as a high performance soccer coach, you know, we are there. We're, you know, the, the job is to win the game and then sometimes winning means that I'm hurting certain kids, their kids still, meaning, like, I'm not actively calling them names or anything like that, but they're not getting their minutes and they all value their ability and their families value who they are and their coaches and they're coming into a new environment and now there's like a new reorganization of that hierarchy. And like, all of those things are tough because like, I constantly struggle with wanting to make sure that they feel good about themselves and then, and then it's like nested within a context of also needing to perform. And maybe the listeners are going to be like, well, you don't need to perform. But actually that is the metric in high performance, right? The metric is that you're winning Olympic gold medals and that you are winning Canada Games or, you know, FIFA World Cups and the like. So, yeah, it's really challenging. I find personally Like a lot of times, like after we have our provincial weekends, I left hurt myself thinking like I, like I'm scrutinizing like, what could I have done to make this better for this individual? And the only way that I could have made it better would have been to have them play full minutes. And that's not reasonable. Yeah, well, I guess it's reasonable in some ways, but it does it. It thwarts what the actual intent of. Of it. Of that competition is.
[00:26:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I think you're touching into something like very tender and powerful in that, you know, we can disclose here's how the decisions are being made. Right. To be a coach, here are all the things that I have to kind of take into account. There's transparency in that and transparency is kindness.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: I always say that you should be transparent.
[00:27:17] Speaker C: Right. Well, Brene Brown took it from you then. She says clear is kind.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: Oh, well, she did. Right.
[00:27:23] Speaker C: Let's go with that.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: We're going to have to get back to her on that one. That means we kind of have to.
[00:27:27] Speaker C: Be a little bit vulnerable. Right. So we're sharing our decision making process. And there is magic. Like, how do I know when I'm going to take someone off or put someone there or there is a little bit of the unknown and mystery when we're coaching. Right. Human beings. And I think that as long as we. We explain some of that and we normalize the fact that this, in this in exact science, it's going to create pain. Right. Every time we lose, it creates. It triggers a loss and the loss triggers grief and some is bigger than others. Everybody has different coping styles. So if we normalize that and especially give some attention to the coaches who are carrying all of that and being measured usually on a singular focus, which is the outcome. So part of my big hope, Tracy and Steve, is that we start to measure against a more holistic approach. So beyond just money and metals, we start to measure morals, the lived experience of all the actors in the field. Right. So if we start to measure more holistically because we know that on any given day it could be us that wins. Right. There is that magic, that secret sauce and support that could make anything possible. It's not all transactional.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: I think related to that too when we're talking about like practical things, metrics at the youth level, where again, it's not winning is not the primary focus. A metric for me would be not how many op. OPDL championships you've won, but how many kids came back to your team. What's Your retention level, I think retention more so on the boy side than the girls, because girls will persist even when they need to move on, would be like, how. How are you keeping your athletes?
[00:29:16] Speaker A: I feel like if I don't interject, the two of you will keep talking about 30,000ft. Last question for me, Tracy, is you mentioned the word practical. So what are some practical tips to combat bullying, harassment to start creating that culture shift to the sport we want to see?
[00:29:35] Speaker B: So a focus on youth sport, because I think that's where we are going to have. We're going to have. We're going to be able to affect change more so than when it's more entrenched in older divisions. So the first thing I would say is that we need to monitor the peer relationships of our athletes and we need to monitor our relationship with our athletes as well. So Dean and I talked about the importance of transparency. I think that if you're a leader, I don't think. I know if you're a leader, it behooves you to be transparent about your decisions. That's what good leadership is. You justify and defend your decisions. And if you can't justify and defend your decisions, you're not a leader as far as I'm concerned. So monitor those peer relationships. You know, this is a voluntary activity, so it should be positive. We shouldn't have kids bullied in their sporting, on their teams, within their individual sports and the like. So monitor them. But there's other little tricks. So for example, coaches are really good at organizing, you know, the passing sequence that they want to see on the field, but not organizing how the groups are going to get formed. And that's problematic, especially with younger kids. I've said this when I taught in teachers college, and I'll say it to the day I die, that coaches and teachers should be forming the groups and not kids there. Inevitably, there's always going to be one or two who are left out, and that's not fair. It's a team sport, so we need to engage everybody. So those are some practical ideas. The other thing too is to be really transparent about what your expectations are for the season, how to manage conflict and how it's going to be managed. I think that if in today's world, if you are a sporting organization, you don't have a clear policy on bullying and harassment that's easily accessible, then you're. You should probably retire because that's just like a given that everybody needs to be doing this. Yeah. So those are like little ideas of what can be done to. To help the context.
[00:31:39] Speaker C: I really appreciate that. I mean, if I was going to summarize everything that you just shared so eloquently, it's the counter to the title of your book. It's Be Kind.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Exactly right.
[00:31:50] Speaker C: And you know, it seems to me, Tracy, I've been saying this for a while. What would we as parents expect and tolerate from teachers in classrooms?
[00:31:59] Speaker B: 100 I always say that too. 100. There's just no way we would ever allow this to happen. And for some reason, we allow it to happen in sport. Like, you have parents who can hear the coach screaming and belittling their child. And that's okay because it's important to win. But then there's another component to that too that we need to be mindful of. Sometimes it's a little bit more complicated than just the coach. Sometimes that coach is embedded within a culture that is very corrupt. And then there's a corrupting influence of, like, the senior administrators of that club or whatever context these kids are in. And they really do. I don't know if you ever saw the documentary I was in called broken with W5 about the abuse of gymnasts. But anyhow, there is a. There is a grooming process that happens also where they say, you know, Steve, if you take your son to the other team, they're going to be boycotted. You know, we're going to destroy you. And they do say that, even today in 2024. So I do appreciate that sometimes it's not as easy as just moving your kid because there could be some consequences to that in youth sport. It's disgusting. It almost sounds like the Mafia, right? Like you're going to wake up with a horse head in your bed or the like.
But the, you know, this is the worry. And, and there is some truth to it. I mean, there's not going to be a horse head in your bed. But, you know, there are some really, really terrible actors in youth sport who are destroying our sport and they have no place in it, and they really need to be pushed out and retired. And yet they persist.
[00:33:40] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's episodes like this and people like you that are championing a better way and also modeling that women, you know, you bring more women into situations. We're going to ask different questions because we have different lived experiences. We have different expectations, different tolerance levels. We can see clearly, which is why it's so important to have diverse groups. Right. It's the. It's not only the smart thing to do. It's also the ethical thing to do. So grateful that you, you know, you took time out of your very busy schedule. We're really excited to promote your book once it's out so you know, you'll give us a link so that we can help people understand, you know, giving people the social emotional literacy so that they can make better decisions on behalf of their children or the children that they're there to coach. Right. So thank you so much for that. In the episode notes below you'll find some sport law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. Thank you so much to our listeners. We're so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you as we all look to elevate sport.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: As always to have your say in Sportopia, email us@helloportlaw CA or on social media @sportlawca to let us know what you want to hear about next. Stay tuned for our next episode. Thanks Tracy. Thanks Dina.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Thank you.
