Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Vindig at Sport Law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport today. We're so pleased to have clinical psychologist Dr. Heather Wheeler join us to talk about the importance of mental health in sport.
And before we get to that, Heather, Steve and I have a little bit of a practice where we talk about what's coming across our desk this week. So I'll begin and then I'm going to ask you what. What's coming across your desk this week? Sound good?
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Sounds good.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Okay, fantastic. So I think I want to share, well, two things. One is I'm heading out. We'll be recording this now and it'll be shared later, but I'm heading out for some much needed R and R. I'm heading out down south and I'm. I'm going on a trip with my brother and his spouse. And my spouse. So I'm really, I'm feeling the energy of escaping for a little bit, and that's part of mental health practice. Really good hygiene, Right. Is to know when we're brushing up against our limitations. So that's one of the things that I'm noticing. The other thing is I've been asked to do a keynote this evening for a group of women. And so I'm really excited because some of the women that I most admire are going to be on the panel. There is Lorraine lafreniere and Ann Merklinger and Allison Sanmayer Graves. So I'll be listening in to. To learn and listen what they're sharing. And. And then I've been asked to talk about reimagining power and how hope, I believe, is one of the things that can really help us situate power from a much more expansive perspective. So that's what's coming across my desk.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: What about you? You never cease to amaze me. The amount of things that you're. You're up to and the depth and breadth of that. Yes. Well, this year also is about making sure that I am managing my own mental health at the same time. Right. I, as a recovering perfectionist and one of those high performers myself, I always have to kind of pay attention, right. To when I've kind of hit my limits, as you said. So I love that. I'm actually taking a day for deep work very soon, and I'm like, so excited to do that. That is actually a way that fills me. And so it's sounds like work, but it's actually a different kind. Right. Of reading and reflecting. So that's. I'm really looking forward to that. And then I'm also really starting. It's. We're starting a new quad for our summer Olympians. And so I'm working with both Swimming Canada, as their mental health lead, as well as Athletics Canada. And both of those strategies require a rewrite and a real digging as to how are we doing. Right. What hasn't gone well and what. What has gone well and what do we want to do differently? The coming quad. Right. Four years. And so one of the ways I'm doing that that I haven't had the chance to do when it was Tokyo and Covid and all of that for the first round, was really to ask the athletes for some feedback. So that's something that I really think is important and we don't do enough of. So I'm trying to dig into getting athlete feedback right now so that we can enhance our strategies and our workflows to support them better.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: I love that deep work, you know, the, the so much. And. Because you and I are passionate about sport and the potential of sport to transform humanity, really. Right. One, one experience at a time. I. I love the invitation to do this. This inner work. And this is going to be the focus of our time together. Heather and I found and I find. So I found and I find that I'm often lost, you know, when we're in transition, moving from the busyness of the things that we tend to be rewarded for.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: And we suppress the things that actually bring us joy, that ground us, that fulfill our. Our meaning making bucket.
But it's not usually the things that we are rewarded for. So we have to look elsewhere. We have to look for that intrinsic motivation and, and be connected to something that may not be rewarded externally, but somehow internally. I'm noticing I feel better about myself and the world around me when I do this deep work.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Totally. Totally. I think that's the call. Right. We. We are in passion professions, as are our athletes and our coaches and our leaders in sport. And if we're not listening to what makes us come alive, then we're not going to be. Not going to be able to sustain. Right. Whatever it is we're doing and we're really not showing up as our best selves. So I agree.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: I Love this. It sounds like you and I are going to have a lot of fun. And I love the language of our. Can we listen? What's our capacity to listen? To what makes us come alive. That's right, yeah. Beautiful. And it's literally, we'll get into some of the questions, but I wanted to honor and reflect. I've been reading some of the ways in which you're engaging on LinkedIn and have found myself like, yes, yes, this is amazing.
And in particular, pardon me, we were meant to meet. Right, Right. Well, and also just watching for the language, the way that you're framing things, which feels holistic and integral and, and true. Right. In a really beautiful way. And you, you had just put out. You know, it's time to stop talking and it's time to listen on this bell, let's Talk day.
And it's so fascinating because I was in, I was ruminating in this kind of space, doing this deeper work and I was thinking the same thing. It's like, oh my gosh, there's Heather inside my brain. There must be something going on here because what is our capacity to listen? Right. And you and I know that when people come to us and we're thinking of ways in which we can bear witness to their suffering or the anxiety, typically they don't need us to problem solve. They just need us to listen and show up and access a quality of our presence that will normalize, not pathologize their lived experience.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Totally. And I think that's part of my mission. Right. As well. And working in sport, trying to help coaches and leaders to do the same, let alone athletes to teammates and others. Right. You know, our parents to their high performing children. I have two high performing teens myself. And so it's been a big part of what I prioritized is how do we. Right. You know, listen and care for our social emotional selves. But as leaders, I think it's very hard because there are blocks to listening. That's what I posted about, I think, Right. You know, on Bell, that's talk day. But you know, we, we are constantly as high performers trying to perfect how are we going to come across our. We're performing. Right. All the time. Right. You know, and so even in those interactions, right. There's this sense of needing to, across a certain way, perfectionistically present ourselves, you know, fix things. Right. You know, and so we need to actually learn how to lean back and physically, literally. Right. Sometimes lean back and receive and to learn how to do that earlier also. So with our athletes I find that coaches are sometimes really much better talkers than, than, than listeners. Right. You know, and we need to be able to teach this basic skill because they are amazing teachers and inspiring and so such incre. Incredible people, you know, but in their own high performance histories, they often didn't learn also how to attend to emotion and their own and others. Right. They learned to progress to outcomes, as we know.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. So how can my non doing be a doing?
[00:08:17] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. Thank you for saying it much more succinctly.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Yeah. How can my silence be the gift?
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: In this situation where I invite you to self determine what is already alive in you. Like our bodies keep the score. Right. Our bodies know how to, how to move, how to heal, how to shrink away. I like that. You know, pause and leaning back. And I think it's Sheryl Sandberg that talked about inviting us to lean in. So we have to be able to do both, right?
[00:08:45] Speaker A: Both. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Well, you know what's fascinating and I, I Steve often says there's a woo woo dimension to the work that you and I do. So in preparation for today, I wanted to INV a poem because I thought that, you know, the words of these sages, these people who can access language to help us speak the the language of our heart. Often when we're talking about mental well being, emotional well being, it's usually the language of the heart, which we don't tend to prioritize. Right. Or normalize. So this poem is by Dana Fault, and she gave me permission to use her poem in my book and it's called Allow.
Read it.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: Yes, please.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: Okay, perfect. So she says she begins with, there is no controlling life.
There is no controlling life. Try corralling a lightning bolt containing a tornado. Damn a stream and it will create a new channel. Resist and the tide will sweep you off your feet. Allow, Allow. And grace will carry us to higher ground.
The only safety lies in letting it all in the wild and the weak, fear, fantasies, failures and success.
When loss rips off the doors of the heart or sadness fails your vision with despair, practice becomes simply bearing the truth.
In the choice to let go of your known way of being, the whole world is revealed through new eyes.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Lovely. I love it.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Beautiful.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: It is. And it really captures that essence of, you know, being open and receiving and allowing the word of course. Right. You know, everything. And it reminds me a lot of the one that I use, which captures some of the similar things from roomie, the guest house. I'm not sure if you're familiar With.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: So that's one of my faves. And I think this idea of. Yeah. Being open to all things because all things are. Are there for us to communicate something, to motivate us, to teach us things that we really care about. You know, they send messages. But if we have been taught to be cut off at the neck and not necessarily. Right. Tune in and listen internally. Right. You know, let alone externally to people, it's. It's tough. Right. Because I've got all of these messages that are being ignored and we're not going to be able to be guided in the right way. Right.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So this, my favorite line in that poem is, allow and grace will carry us to higher ground.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Which is a beautiful bridge to Rumi's, you know, inviting it all in. Right. Inviting all the emotions in. What new delight will you discover when you allow, when you welcome these cast of characters that are alive in all of us?
[00:11:41] Speaker A: That's right. The darkness, the meanness. Right, Exactly. Yeah. You take away all your furniture and. Right. Sweep away everything you own. These emotions are really important to let in the door. Yeah.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: You know, it's really beautiful about this. So I'm. I'm engaged in.
So this is my 10th course at university of Western Ontario. Has a college called King's College that's associated with it. So I've been taking thanatology courses there since 2019. I'm on my 10th. And this one is, I think, therapeutic modalities in grief and loss. So I'm sinking myself into all kinds of different modalities. Compassion, you know, based modalities that allows us to connect to the. Our interior. And, and so one of the practices I thought I would share with you because it reminds me of Rumi's guest house. I, I was engaging in this practice with a client. She was really struggling with a death related topic. And I, I asked her to imagine that each of like her different Personas. So as a bereaved person, what were the different Personas that she could access right now? So she talked about, you know, her, her anguishing self. So the, the whole despair Persona that's alive for her. She talked about her focused self, the one that was getting stuff done. She talked about her empathetic self, the one that was there to support her children in the absence of her partner being there with her the way she wants them to be. And then, and then we were digging around a little bit and I said, what else, what else are you noticing? And she said, well, there's a creative Self. There's a creative part of me. What's that about? So I had her sitting at the table with all these selves, right? Inviting the whole cast of character in this house to just be welcomed here. And I invited her to dress them. I invited her to, to kind of like step into what. What did they most need? What is it that they most want to share with you? Right, so this is, you know, you and I would know that this is part of internal family systems, right. As a modality. But these, this way of using practices to help us welcome the cast of characters, welcome the Malian, and then as opposed to dismissing them or stifling them, muting them, rejecting them, what is it that they're here to tell us? Yeah, but this is really transformative, Heather.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: There is, there is. And you know, I think that a lot of the work that I do is, is about. It takes a long time, especially for our high performers, to take off the fear, the layer of. Right. Fear and stuffing and you know, all the other behaviors actually the ways that they've ignored their emotions to suppress their emotions. And you know, at times when people come into my office, it's also because they've now, it's developed into a mental illness of sorts. Right. You know, there's severe depression because they've engaged in such self loathing and self, you know, abandoning of themselves along the way and haven't turned that loss into connection. So they withdraw and avoid and isolate. Eating disorders. Right. You know, where we concretize our pain in our bodies. Right. You know, substance use, substance abuse. Right. Or misuse, I should say. Right. And other things that actually cover up what really is just there as a natural occurrence, as you said. Right. These emotions, these voices, these, you know, kind of parts of ourselves, Right. You know, some people, you know, even the shadow parts of ourselves, so to speak. Right. Need a voice, right. And want to be integrated into this way that allows us to feel like again, we are whole. Right. As we come out into the world, we don't have to kind of put part of ourselves behind a closed door. Right. With shame.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. You know, the Buddhists will say, I'm paraphrasing, pain is what happens to our emotional and physical being. Right. And often it's not. We can't control that. Things happen to us. And as high performers, we suffer through all kinds of losses, but also physical injury. So think of athletes who are in recovery. So pain really isn't optional. But Buddhists will tell us that suffering is because suffering is the Denial of our pain.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah. What do you think of that?
[00:16:01] Speaker A: Yes, I use it all, you know, and probably had another LinkedIn post about that itself too. Right. I talked to coaches and athletes about how, you know, we go and we move along the continuum of mental health concerns from green to red. Right. And there's another blue. I usually, it's sort of a side conversation we can come back to, but really that we move along, you know, the frequency, intensity, type and time of our symptoms because we have some pain emotional, and then we resist that pain. Right. So pain times resistance equals suffering is the equation that the Eastern saying says. And I think really, if we, if we think a little bit about the forms of resistance when it comes to pain physically, right. We know, we brace around our pain. We. We don't realize. Right. We have a specific. I know, right. You know, a hip. From being a gymnast myself. Right. You know, and then. Oh, no. But when I brace around it, my whole back lights up. Right. And my hamstring gets hurt and all these kinds of things. And that's what pain times resistance equals suffering looks like. Physically and it's the same thing. But emotionally it comes in the forms of, you know, we of course avoid. We don't want to have these thoughts. Right. You know, we don't want to have these feelings of pain. And so we engage in things like the blame and shame game. Right. You know, let's blame other people for our pain, including our coaches, which, you know, and our athletes. Right. Let's, let's, let's shame ourselves. Let's come up with some character level decision as to why we're experiencing this. There's something wrong with me. Right. You know, and we just all add that shame. We also busy ourselves and we try to not think about stuff. So. Right. You know, we get really busy and we, we overthink things, we overanalyze, we ruminate, we go back over it. These are all forms of resistance, right. In mental health. And these are all the things that we try and help people unlock from so that they can, you know, experience pain fully without. And it comes and goes faster that way. Right. Without adding these layers and making it worse and turning it into some sort suffering that lasts a long time and then starts to chip away at your identity of who you are and, you know, what you can accomplish in life and, you know, your community and all those kinds of things.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
As I listen to you, it's like, where were you 30 years ago? Well, you were on the mat.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: I was on the mat. I was on the mat. Yes.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: And, and we can, you know, as someone who's had a love affair with them Canadian sports systems since 91, it has given me so much right. This, this way of connecting to my values and being in service of you know, athletes for, for the earlier part of my career and, and this ideal of, of trying to promote a values based ideology through true sport.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:42] Speaker B: And how, how the sector wasn't ready to really receive that more proactive, values based, more interior looking approach to, to the development of high performance sport. And I, I sense now, Heather, that the timing might be a little bit better. People are maybe a little bit more open to a different way of measuring success. What do you think?
[00:19:08] Speaker A: I was agreeing with you until you said that last bit because I think you know, still right. In high performance we're going to have measurements of success that have to performance on demand and outcomes, you know, and medals and things like that. I don't. There's a way to get away from that. I think to some extent that's why people get into sport and high performance. Right. You know, but we can still focus on winning at the same time as you know, being well and I do think this is the right time for that. Right. You know, as you know, OTP is trying to. Right. Be really clear about this new winning well mentality. Not new, but just expanding upon that and really making sure that we're emphasizing the well part and we have now systems in place that are helpful helping us to do a little bit better to support our senior athletes and coaches. But I think that the redefinition of success will take some time. Right. You know, and I'm with you. I think it's necessary. Right. For, for our mental health, for the wellness of our high performers. Right. Long standing before, during and after sport and so high performance sport. So how can we help them to rewrite the narrative and define themselves in a multitude of ways. Right. Rather than in singular ways. Yeah.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: That's beautiful. I, I totally agree. I, I remember doing a keynote a few years back and I talked about a triple bottom line.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: Yes. Okay.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Sport. Right. Beyond money and metals. Measuring sport through. Through a 3M approach. Money, medals and morals. So this, this kind of holistic way of inviting people to, to review their performance against a much broader.
That the systems of reward align with that because as you and I know, we move in the direction that we're being rewarded. So in the absence of a more holistic approach, it's easy then to dismiss, forget, stay in right.
At the expense of our well being. And then sadly that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where what we're noticing now is athletes are saying no. Athletes are finding their voice and demanding to be part of the decision making structure of the organizations of which they have been a part of since they were young. Right. They don't just become elite athletes. So reimagining sport requires, I think a level of moral courage and a shared vision based on grounded values that will, will speak to many of the principles that you, that you shared with us this morning. So you know, we, I would love. Thank you for all of that beautiful opening. It feels like we, we were going to warm up and then it's like no deep end of this. Sorry, we're just so maybe. Yeah, exactly. Tell us a little bit more about you, Heather, and how you, you came to be, you know, a clinical psychologist that specializes in emotional and social well being of high performance ATH and, and others. Maybe tell us a little bit more about your career trajectory. I'd love to hear that.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean growing up I was a, I ended up being a national team athlete, but I was in, you know, kind of very, very specific, specialized sport quite early. Right.
And you know, in the end, heading off to university, had a really difficult time retiring from high performance sport. And so noticing not only in myself, but in my peers and my teammates. Right. How much there was some suffering and some difficulty doing that. Right.
I think that, that inspired me to try and see if we could kind of make a difference. And I had a mother as a psychotherapist, but I also had a father as a sport medicine doctor who's well known in Canada. And so that, you know, these inspired me a little bit. Right. You know, to be working with these, you know, top class, world class people. In my PhD, in my master's and PhD, in fact, in my honors, I worked on theses related to disordered eating and identity development. So this is again one of the crux of what I saw in the girls on my team when we went to go retire. Right. That we were all struggling with who am I? Who do I want to be? You know, and because we had lived in this bubble, right. You know, we, we kind of got lost a little bit along the way. Right. You know, you go through intense sport and you're sort of thinking, who am I? So, you know, and some of them, you know, develop disordered eating. Right. You know, and there was sort of this idea that maybe there's a link. And so my research tried to show that. And you Know, then I, I really from there just developed a personal network and niche because I worked with some dietitians who were very immersed in the field and I became a consultant for csio, the Canadian Sport Institute Ontario. That allowed me to kind of start working with, you know, our Olympians and Paralympians all the way up and, and that built into a private practice that has included athletes in sport throughout my 20 years. So.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: Wow. And what a, what a beautiful career. And I, I love that you, you know, you, you came to this world honestly with, you know, your, your dad being, you know, immersed in the world of, of high performance, but also you have two children and you said that they themselves are, are part of the the or they're on the pathway. So do you want to share more about what that's like noticing how do you apply all these. This and mindset heart set to parenting your children?
[00:24:46] Speaker A: Oh, that's a big question. We could do a whole podcast on that.
My son is 18, my daughter's 14. They're both national team athletes and they are water skiers actually, but they also do alpine skiing, so they do ski cross. And so they're really all year round. Right. Intensely involved in sport.
As a young parent, I studied what I needed, I needed it myself still to kind of regulate myself as a young parent again 20 years ago and then, and a working mom, you know, and then I, I really dove into things like mindfulness and became an advanced teacher in mindfulness and I started to use that in my healthcare work and, and run groups with mindfulness and that kind of thing. And so that was a big part of our home. And you know, even at a young age, right. My son at 4 was meditating with me and you know, we had the, you know, the singing bowl with us and you know, using that for regulating our emotions. Long story short, he really values that. I mean, I think it really, he's, he's a regular meditator and actually, you know, I think that's a really big important part of his life. Actually now my daughter's still going through her middle teens of not sure whether and how she's going to incorporate it, but she'll probably come back around to it at some point. So social emotional learning was a really big part of what I knew that I needed and therefore the, and wish I had more of as a young kid and therefore what my kids want and need in order to sustain. Right. And to again think broader than just success and you know, performance. But actually how did they manage? Right. The ups and downs of sport, not just in life. Right. Not just where are you going and where did you get to? Right.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: I, my, the, my, my maternal, you know, heart is singing as you're, as you're sharing your story. I have three children, they're adults now and they were all involved not at, in elite sport but you know, they played regional level soccer and hockey and, and, and we were involved as coaches on the, in our children's sports and in part because we wanted them to receive an experience that was, that we, you know, to them to the extent possible felt would be a positive one. And you know, you see both the really beautiful parts of what sport can do on the playing field and community. You also see the dark underbelly of nepotism, privilege, right. Racism, exclusionary practices, the focus on winning at all cost. And so by the time a little athlete who's gone through this experience is now on the elite pathway, they've been conditioned, don't you think Heather, to it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.
I'm curious what your thoughts are on the linkages between, you know, child development theories and how we might model a sports system around healthy child development theories and then creating a seamless link to ages and stages of development that, that they're ready for your thoughts on that.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: I think without getting into the how we could do it. I think, you know, theoretically and ideally. What's the word I'm looking for, you know, from an inspirational perspective. Right. You know, we are all hoping, I think that you know, true sport principles and you know, sport can be the place that becomes the, the, the way that our young kids learn how to do some of the basic things that will help them in life. Right. You know, so that includes self regulation, self awareness, moral development. Right. You know, how we treat others, how we. Right. Treat ourselves alone, you know, and emotion regulation skills and these kinds of things. And that's what sports should be. Right. You know, it really should be a place, you know, a laboratory for us to actually teach our, our kids these things and then they will adult much better down the road if they do. Right. You know, I love.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: You've made it a verb. That's great.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Yes, they were adults, but I think our leaders and our coaches feel under equipped but also under resourced to do think it's their intention. I do, I think, you know, as you know, morally ground leaders for the most part that's what they want to do. Right. You know, but you know, they're, they're working off the side of their desk. They're doing this on top of parenting their own kids and you know, they're, it's, it's really difficult. Right. You know, and so if it's not at the forefront right. In, in our value systems all the way down to the front lines in the club level. Right. Then we're really going to have a hard time living that out. And then, you know, the kids get to the level where they're going to the Olympics or, you know, Paralympics and, and, and, or pro sports. Right. You know, and they don't have that grounded foundation. And in part, to be honest, unfortunately, because some parents also don't have the resources. Like we don't get, we don't get trained in how to be a parent. Right. You know, I was lucky. I had my, you know, my family, you know, background, my family therapy background and my, you know, all that work that I did in psychology. But yeah, we don't get, we don't get the learning book for that. So we're learning as we go. And, and I think all around our society, right. With the stress level is making it really hard for us to prioritize the social, emotional learning that we need to do, whether it's at school, at home or in sport.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Beautifully shared. So maybe let's go there. You know, we, we talk about how parent as parents, but I would also say as bereaved people, we're given the test first and the lesson after. We don't have the language, the ABCs and the 1, 2 threes of grief and loss to understand what is happening to me as opposed to what's wrong with me. Right. So I was really grateful. And when I saw some of your posts related to grief and loss and the way in which you were speaking about it was an example of grief and loss literacy that you were using the right language, the right framing to talk about this natural human experience. When we become attached to ideas and people and traditions and rituals and an experience and my teammates and coaches, my identity all wrapped in. And if I'm an athlete at the age of 25 and now I'm retiring, you know, 10 years, 10,000 hours at a minimum. Right. Where I've, I've become attached and conditioned to have this internal meaning making that that is now ended, that's that attachment becomes severed on multiple levels. So we have the primary loss of leaving and then we have all these secondary losses that are part of the human experience.
So, you know, as someone who's a certified thanatologist and I write extensively about this, you can Imagine how grateful I was when I'm reading some of how you're positioning this within the sector. Maybe share a little bit more about some of the work that you're doing to support and, you know, the athletes who are bereft right after they leave their experience and it may be anything else that you want to share around grief and loss more generally.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Sure, sure. And I should have said earlier that, I mean, I think the reason that I feel confident at being able to ride these waves of grief more effectively right. In my life is because I did have that standout coach.
It's somebody who is really, really crucial. We all only need one adult in our lives, right, to help us through difficult things. So I feel like my, you know, my support for athletes is two pronged. When I can work with the coaches, I will as well. But with athletes themselves, you know, we really want to recognize what type of grief, you know, they're engaged, they're experiencing and how many layers maybe they put on top of it to kind of, you know, shove it down or make it again that suffering versus pain already. So if they're coming in with a mental illness already, you know, we. We kind of need to unpack back the ways that they are, you know, maybe, perhaps. Perhaps perpetuating, right. The pain. And we really start there and then. And then go deeper. But we need to identify, you know, what was the loss. A lot of them don't even see it as losses. Right. You know, they, they, you know, again, disenfranchise, but, like, they can't. I don't deserve to, you know, feel like this is grief. Right. You know what I mean? Like, everybody experiences that. Right. Or, you know, that's, of course, that's, of course, that's just life. Right. That's just. Is the way it is. And this kind of false, packaged acceptance. Right. Is really not truly accepting you. The pain of what happened to them, whether it's, you know, going to the Games and, you know, not having that metal performance that you were expected to have or what have you, or not making it right or not being able to go to the Games even though you were expected to. Right. In some ways.
Whether it's, of course, all the way through to, you know, losing teammates, coaches, other traumatic events that happen both in and out of sport. But you. You asked specifically. I'll come back around to kind of retirement first from sport. And I think that this idea of transitioning, maybe it's not the best word, retirement, transitioning out of sport is really important for us to Lay some ground, some groundwork and foundation in that tuning in to what helps us feel alive. Right. What are the parts of myself I had to shove away in order to perform all these years and what brings me joy, right. What used to bring me joy that I don't remember because for so long I've been going to the gym for 25 hours a week and I don't really know where the track or the pool.
So that's number one and really broadening that. But the other piece is around helping people to learn how to relate to themselves and their emotions as we talked about earlier, a little bit better. Right. So this resistance leads them to, you know, again, disengage, dissociate, you know, abandon. Right. Parts of their grief and the emotions that come with that. And they, some, you know, high performance athletes need really, really basic education about and language for their emotional world. Right. They don't even have that because they've ignored, you know, or they've kind of added on top with over anxiety and thinking and then they just don't even understand the core emotion that's underneath that, right. Is sadness, for instance. Right. You know, they don't have an emotion for our word or language for that. So how do they feel that? How do they resist it, how they brace around it and how can we unpack that and understand maybe some of the origin wounds that would have created this pattern for them, right. To, you know, again, disassociate, disconnect, abandon themselves when they're hurting. Right. And so how can we learn how to relate to ourselves a bit better is the core of that. And then secondly, how do we learn how to express our pain and ask for help and externally, right. You know, connect and relate to others differently, right. In that pain because a lot of them don't feel like again, they're deserving, right. They have such a great life. You know, they're these, you know, kind of of accomplished, you know, performers in many different ways and they've got lots going for them and people look up to them. Meanwhile, they're in pain, right. You know, and so just taking the time to really acknowledge and be willing to let down their guard and be vulnerable with me first often and then with others to be able to let them in and realize I don't have to feel shame about what I'm feeling. Actually a, this is quite normal. As, you know, and as, as I feel that and I feel people's support, I feel better. You know, I don't, don't feel as bad when I do it, try and do it all on my own. Know. I hope that's helpful.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: Oh, it's incredibly helpful. And I would say we tend to pathologize, not humanize the experience. And as you shared, when we turn to people that are part of our therapeutic third, you know, those people that, that we count on to help us through, they often are, are surprised at how we might be suffering. And the, the tendency is to lean in, to double down on the muscles that got me here.
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Here. Yes.
[00:36:46] Speaker B: Right. So the stoic, the, the, the push on, move through. You should be grateful, you know, look at what you've accomplished. Or even sometimes I use the, the example of Wayne Gretzky, who was devastated when he asked to be traded.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: From the Edmonton Oilers. Right. And you see there's a press conference with him. Sobbing. So even when we self determine, we have to help people understand in our North American culture, we tend to be, you know, grief phobic and death denying. So we don't have this language to be able to understand what's happening to me, which is that internal response. Right. That's what grief is, this internal response to that severed attachment. But then our, our entourage, the people that we would turn to, often don't have the language or the understanding, and so they're defaulting to their own way of coping. So I'd love to bring in, you know, some coping practices because often people, when I ask people, what's your coping style, what's your coping practice? They're like, huh. So I, I elaborate by inviting them to think about when life is going sideways, when you might experience, when you're dysregulated or feeling frustrated or angry or sad, what do you do?
And I have found, I don't know about you, Heather, when we, when we allow that to be true for us and we share our coping practice with our teammates, this is some of the work I've done with athletes within teams is to normalize. This is my coping style.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: And my coping style is different from your coping style. Now we're suffering the same loss, but we're going to be different in that experience. And if we can, we can know that in advance. We're not going to then compete with each other in this, what I call a grief. Archie.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: Right, that's great. I love it. Yeah.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: So maybe say a little bit more about, about coping styles and how you might support athletes, coaches, you know, the system and understanding and normalizing these different ways that we, you know, we, we turn to, to help us get through These experiences that are causing us pain.
[00:38:58] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Sideways.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that we know is that sport doesn't necessarily lead to a whole lot of time for reflecting on and you know, self awareness of what are our coping strategies. Right. You know, so I think that's the big core of the problem there as to why we don't actually have people aware and able to shift how they're coping. But I do think that that's number one to figuring out what's my style. And many of the people who I work with and on the teams are able to say, hey, listen, I really tend to want to avoid that unpleasant feeling, that discomfort, danger, sort of viewpoint. And so through mindfulness and other practices, we're really working on building just can you dip your toe in the water and actually be with that difficulty, that tension? Can you notice how there's like this something bubbling down here in my body? There's a, you know, a sadness or something. There's something there, but then there's this anger resistance. Like don't feel shoving down. And can you actually feel that? So that you can just say, hey, listen, this guy. Can you maybe. Right. You know, just, you know, let that be. Right. But see what this guy down here has to say, right in your core, you know, and I'm pointing to my stomach and my. Right, yes. Who aren't. Who are listening to.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: Back to the table. Right. Like you invite that person here.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. What does this part of you need to say? Right? But I think that, that there's this. And when they let that out, there is an ability, right. To just kind of again, all of a sudden, right. Sometimes. Right. The tears come and they don't even realize. And that feels so much better. And so, but usually there's. There's more anger, right. You know, rather than letting in the sadness and the, the more vulnerable emotions. Right. You know, and again, anger itself, anger at others. So some of the coping is this unhealthy self loathing. Right. You know, withdrawing perfectionism is another way of coping. Right. You know, I think you probably want me to get to the more helpful ways of coping. Right. You know, which is. Is through, I think as a base, some of the self awareness and mindfulness. Because if you're not aware, you're not listening to what exactly that emotion is trying to tell you, right. What anger is trying to tell you is very different than what guilt and shame is trying to tell you. You or what sadness is trying to tell you. And Communicate. Right. So if we understand it, then we can learn how to actually intervene and listen to it and choose the right way. Right. You know, so we know there's sadness rather than anger. Then you know, I'm really disappointed in my performance or my right. You know, I'm disappointed that my teammate, you know, left or my, you know, kind of I didn't make the team or whatever it is. But there's also this embarrassment and other emotions and the more we differentiate those emotions, the clearer it gets of how we could, what we need to be with. Right. You know, and what's hard for us to be with. Right. You know, embarrassment's one of those hard ones, but once you do, when you name it, it relieves it, you know, almost immediately because there's a sense of. Oh yeah, embarrassment. Oh, right. Oh, and who else experiences embarrassment in life? Oh, everybody. Right. You know, and. Oh, how long does this last? Oh, actually not that last that long usually. Right. You know, if I can be with it long enough but without resisting and making it bigger.
I think that there's a lot of distraction. You know, we know the tools that people use, the phones, the, you know, netflixing, the busying yourself is a problem and so trying to learn other ways of healthy connecting when people are distracting and getting again off of their phones, looking away from those screens and, and actually looking for the non verbals. Right. Tina, like I can see your face shifting as I'm speaking. Right. But if I'm in my head and I'm going in a shame spiral about something I'm worried about or upset about or grieving about. Right. You know, then I'm not going to notice that you show deep care and warmth and empathy towards me. And then we co regulate our nervous systems as you know. Right. So we need that connection in order to get through. Right. You know, these difficult feelings. Right.
And so, so connection we need, you know, rather than disconnection and you know, distraction, I guess. Guess. Right. We need mindfulness and self awareness. Right. Rather than resistance and you know, non acceptance of our emotions, our physical well being. Right. You know, we do need some ways for us to, you know, problem solve and plan. Right. You know, how do we engage rather than disengage with, with our world in ways that helps us, gives us energy rather than drains our energy, these kinds, kinds of things. And that is usually the biggest way of people moving through grief is, you know, connection. Right. So we, we just need to get through getting rid of the barriers to connection for most people.
I could go on. I'M not going to do, tell you what, what I do all in therapy. But you know, those are some beginning points for people that are really important.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I hope this is, this is really helpful for people who are listening and this applies to all the humans. Happens right on the planet. It's not just isolated what we can, what we know though for athletes, especially younger ones, the levels of complexity is if they fail, the whole world is watching. And so their, their grief experience is not alone. They're not in a bubble, they're under a microscope and so helping to normalize and not pathologize, to plan for it as you've shared to give each other different language. And I would say the rituals are so important. So one of the things that I do as a ritualist is help people through dedicated practice, plan for these moments and then understanding our different coping practice bring in either individual or group rituals to help us move through the experience. And we all know how to hold ritual. Right. And so these, these intentional acts where we can come together in community helps us heal. Right. Because our individual pain, when we connect it to a ritual through a ritual, then we're mourning that loss. And people often, Heather, tend to think of mourning as being only in the domain of death related losses. But we also have non finite losses. Right. That we carry. And in the world of sport we don't tend to use rituals in that way. Yes, we rely on rituals like I'm not changing my socks for the hole or I'm not going to shave my beard for the NHL.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I, I think you're right and I know just to add to that, I think you're right in terms of both the teams that I work with. One worked quite closely, got a lot of young kids to the Olympics last year and was really, really intensely involved with that team. And the end of it was they all went off to do the university and their different things and we ended and the coach and I have shared how much we're grieving about that loss. Yes, we have a new bunch of kids coming in. Yes, we're, we, we really right. Are making them our family now too. But, but that happens, right? You know, there's, there's not a turnover, but people move on to different parts of their lives after, especially after a games or an ending in an end of a quad for our sports. So yes, we, we, you know, ritualize that. Right. We had an ending. Right. You know, we had a sense of this is the family that we had. Right. You know, we had some, some writing and some gifts and some celebrating. Right. You know, and some thanking. Right. You know, how do we say goodbye? Right? We say say goodbye by, you know, saying thank you and saying sorry, maybe saying, I forgive you, whatever we do. But we, we say goodbye in so many different ways. And, and to do that properly allows us to, to feel like it's not just me. Right. Grieving as we are alone again, you know, or.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah, beautiful. I often one of my teachers said we have to learn how to say hello before we can say goodbye. Right. So can we befriend our grief? Hello, go. What are you here to teach me? And then allow that human experience to be processed through many of the things that we spoke to today, you know, as we complete our time together.
In my book, Grief Unleashed, I talk to three athletes and one of them was Mark De Jong, who was a paddler. And he, he remarked we. He was in this bit of a journey, right? In life, in transition. And he came to me, as many athletes do when they don't feel that they've reconciled something. So they just, they just kind of happen to come to me. So we went for a walk. He was in Nova Scotia, I'm here in, in Ottawa in our respective healing woods. And we had two conversations. And out of that conversation, it illuminated a part of his, his attachment that had been severed. And, and then his performance tanked. And what he shared was like he stopped being able to perform on demand the minute that he was named to the team but his mates weren't.
And the downward spiral that, you know, ensued around the competition, the jockeying for position, the animosity that wasn't there. So what he realized is he, he was unable to perform on demand. He went from being like a machine to not understanding what was happening to him. So when we gave him language to understand what had happened, his attachment to his mates, the dream that they weren't going to fulfill, something shifted and dissolved. He said, oh, like if I had known this seven years ago.
[00:48:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: If nobody, like, talked to me about this, even though he had this amazing entourage. Which brings me to the. The future of Sport Commission. Right. Heather. I find it's cruel and unusual punishment to keep downloading all of the woes of a system that wasn't designed for our 2025 needs onto the shoulders of the individuals. So we need a renewed system, a system that is designed with the end in mind. Right? Yeah, We've been talking to. So as we start thinking about a values based, right, principle driven, healthy, holistic sports system from, you Know, Lori Johnson says from cradle to grave.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:49:01] Speaker B: What if you were given, you know, an audience with the Future Sport Commission panel? What, what might be some of the things that would be on your wish list for a better sports system?
[00:49:11] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, I wish I had more time to really flesh this out, but I think, you know, we've, we've done some work with athletes. Of course they need support, but I think it can't come unless we have the funding to support our coaches and our leaders. Right. I believe that they themselves. Right. Haven't. Right. Learned the ways of how to process grief, of how to, you know, attend to their own emotions, how to model. Right. Good Emotion regulation to their athletes. And I think that that is a really, really important resource and an untapped resource. Right. You know, my, you know, kind of education sessions here and there and your work and Loren's work with coaches is, you know, it's just a scratching the surface. Right. Of what we probably could do. And all through the system. Right. There might be some funding at the nso, the National Sporting Organization level, but not necessarily all the way down to where it starts at the provincial level. Right. You know, in the club level. Right. So really earlier, being more proactive about some of the teaching we do around, you know, emotional, you know, learning and the impact that we have through that, that emotional world. Right. And connection. Right. With our athletes. So that's a really key thing, I think, you know, just, I think that could just do so much. Right. If we just did that earlier and had our coaches and leaders walk the walk and really know what we're talking about. I don't think they understand what we mean, to be honest. Right. So, so they, they need actual basic, basic learning about that.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm with you. If I had a magic wand, it would be doubling down on what you just shared. And that feels like the compassionate thing to do to provide more skill and compassion. And we can only do that to the extent of how aware we are of our own limitations and pressure points. Right. And the things that bring us joy. So I'm really grateful on behalf of the team at Sport Law that you've taken the time to share what you know, you've come to know your, your brilliant mind and beautiful heart in service of the athletes and the coaches and the system and, and so much of your work often is done in the shadows, right. One on one with people. Hopefully people who are listening are inspired by some of what Dr. Heather Wheeler is hoping for. And so in the episodes notes below, you're going to find some sport law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. We'll also link you to how you can get in touch with Dr. Heather Wheeler if you're so inspired. Thank you so much to our listener. So grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you as we all look to elevate sport. As always, to have your say in Sportopia, email us at HelloPortLaw CA or on social media portlaw CA to let us know what you want to hear about next. Until then, stay tuned for the next episode. A deep, deep bow of gratitude to you Heather, and look forward to having a part two to this exquisite conversation anytime.
[00:52:10] Speaker A: Dina, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Really enjoyed the experience. Experience.
