Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Vindig at Sport Law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Foreign.
[00:00:39] Speaker C: Welcome to the last episode of Sportopia for 2025. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Looking ahead, we wanted to launch a new theme called Lessons on Leadership. We've had the privilege of connecting with incredible speakers over the past few years and thought it would be helpful for our listeners to learn from some of sport's most inspiring leaders. In this episode, we're going to share our views on leadership to kickstart the conversation and interview each other.
But before we start. But before we start, Dina, as usual, what's coming across your desk?
[00:01:18] Speaker C: Well, speaking of leadership. So I had the privilege of talking to a leader last week and it's in the university setting. And so he contacted me because he wanted to create a new initiative supporting one of his coaches and really wanted to bring the coaches together and learn from each other, also ensure that they're nurturing really strong alliances between the coaches. So I'm really excited, Steve, because I designed something similar for the Canadian Olympic Committee years and years ago called Peer to Peer.
And these peer to peer conversations are really, really helpful.
They not only help us resolve that might be really weighty and heavy, making us feel isolated as leaders, but they're also a way for us to forge stronger relationships with people we may not have the chance to meet other than at major games, let's say.
So it's going to be a lot of fun. I think, co creating the experience and learning from these amazing coaches who really want to strengthen their relationships not only with themselves, but with the athletes they're coaching. What about you? What's coming across your desk?
[00:02:33] Speaker B: I've always shared that things come in threes and so far I've had two. Just over the last two days, I've had two requests.
Questions, policy development with respect to screening. And it's interesting that I guess we're still having the conversation of should we be doing it? How do we do it? What are we looking for?
And of course, it's a huge part of risk management to do as much as we reasonably can to put people in positions of strength of trust and authority, but also ensuring that they meet the values and code of conduct that we have within our organization.
So the questions we're relating to, you know, we don't have a policy. How do we do it to.
How do I get my coaches to do it? They're already coaching.
So I thought it was an interesting dilemma that, you know, organizations, some are allowing people to take on these positions without conducting the proper due diligence in advance.
And the worry always is that, well, if something comes up, I'm out of a coach.
But, of course, that's what we want. We want that person not to be coaching if there's a red flag with respect to their criminal past.
You know, I've always said criminal record checks is, of course, is a very valid and important piece of screening, but it's a piece. A lot of times people shouldn't necessarily be in a. In a role as a coach based on conduct within sport that may not be criminal, but still lead to that person not being put into that position. So I. I do think the. Of the value and the importance of doing it still very much exists.
[00:04:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I appreciate that, Steve, and I think that's really what's inspired us to launch this themed approach to conversations with leaders. Because, you know, the, the skills and the mindset and what we rewarded leaders to be and do has changed dramatically. Right. So I think of, you know, parenting, too. The philosophy around parenting and what was seen as a good parent, you know, 30, 40, 50 years ago, different than today. So we're not assigning maybe judgment. What we're trying to do, I think, in these.
In these conversations, is shine a spotlight on leaders who are really effective. And we know that what was effective decades ago, maybe it was effective, but it came from a place of fear. Right. So we want sustainable effectiveness.
And when we invest in people's capacity to lead from a place, as you said earlier, of values, it just flows more naturally. And if there's one word that I think will be the word of 2026, it'll probably be authenticity, because I'm hearing it in, you know, hallway conversations. I'm hearing it with younger people. They really want people to show up as themselves. And it's just so liberating to be able to lead from that place that's aligned with your. Your core values. Right. You're not having to f.
So, you know, we thought this would be a fun and inspiring way for us to shine a spotlight on leaders who we know are making an indelible contribution to the Canadian sports system. And so we've curated a list, and we'll start with that. We'd also love to invite our listeners to drop, you know, names of who you want to hear from.
So we're going to start, you know, like anything, it starts with a conversation and maybe a bit of a crazy idea.
So, Steve, I'm going to ask you the first question. What is the most rewarding part of being a leader?
[00:06:21] Speaker B: First, I'm trying to decide if I'm a leader. But I do know I get put in front of a room all the time, in front of tens, if not hundreds of people to talk about things related to sport and what we do here at Sport Law.
I guess I'll start back. Dino When I was a kid, and we probably talked about this on our very first episode, but I think it still resonates with me that sport was a big part of my upbringing. Being in a growing up in a small town, that's the way we engaged with each other. My parents ended up building a full court basketball court in our backyard. They owned a motel and turned the overflow parking lot into a court. And there was people there all the time. And that was just unorganized sport, let alone playing hockey, volleyball, basketball, swimming, whatever I get my hands on was really important. So that was a big part of my upbringing. And then being a varsity athlete at university, transitioning that into coaching and now, you know, consulting, I want to be able to give back. And I've had some. I've had a lot of personal success in my life as an athlete, as a coach, as a professional. But I still get the most joy out of seeing others succeed.
So being able to be a part of that. And I know we're more in the boardroom than on the field, but, you know, behind the scenes, if we can create an environment where, as I like to say, things are moving from A to B and not A to A, it's inspiring to be a part of that. And, you know, again, seeing somebody win a gold medal or hit a home run or just being able to have their own personal success at the house league level anywhere, it's just a joy. And again, I've shared this story before on the podcast.
Sometimes being in our office setting all the time and not seeing the smiling faces and the cheers and the success, you kind of forget about it. And I was invited to a soccer club for. For something who remembers what probably bylaw related.
And their office was next to soccer fields and Tim Hortons. It was like the, the Tim Hortons. Try it. Soccer. Tim bit soccer. And there was hundreds of little kids running around and kind of just stopped and looked over and went, yeah, that's what it's all about. It's just seeing those kids being active and smiling and have a good. And having a good experience. So for being a part of that from the holistic approach is really important to me, and that's what inspires me to continue to do what we do. It is sometimes challenging when you write a policy or you write a bylaw, you're involved in a screening or a complaint, or you get a little taken aback or removed from what we're trying to do. But the company being around for over 33 years, there's obviously a need for what we provide to the system. And I just hope, again, it ties back to that little. That little kid starting their sporting experience or that that seasoned athlete who desires to win a gold medal can. So I think it's everything from in between that makes it rewarding to be a part of this system transition. Dina, what about you? Why are you here? What do you like about being a leader in the sports system?
[00:09:40] Speaker C: Well, one of the things I like in this moment is just watching your face as you're talking about a memory of watching these little, you know, Timbits running on a soccer pitch. And. And that's why I think that's why we're here. And I also think that's a hallmark of a leader, is being able to a be humble. You know, your first comment was, well, I don't know, am I a leader? Am I there yet? And I think having that humility is. Is really a hallmark of. Of leadership.
I think that for me, the most rewarding part of being a leader is being in service of others.
And in that moment, really tapping into.
You are the most important person in my world in this moment.
And I really feel that in my body, in my heart.
And I find that when we, when we bring our full self to the conversation, the problem that felt so weighty starts to dissipate because the person that we're there to support doesn't feel so isolated. You know, as you and I have shared before, Steve, leadership is a lonely path.
So many of the leaders, they don't know often who to talk to because they don't yet want to bring the. The problem to the board.
And the problem may be so delicate that they can't really speak to their staff about it if they're fortunate enough to have staff at that level.
And so I find that, you know, it is incredibly rewarding. Meaningful might be the better word.
When I'm walking alongside someone and then they. They turn to me and they feel that they'll say I just feel so relieved. That's often the common word I get, you know, when I'm. I'm connecting with people. So that is really important. And then I would say back at the ranch with the people that we are fortunate enough to work alongside.
These are all the consultants that work at Sport Law.
I find it deeply, deeply meaningful and inspiring to be in the presence of people who are as devoted to, you know, elevating sport as we are. And so that, to me, is really inspiring. Creating a culture where people feel like they belong, they can do really meaningful work, they can feel like it's making a difference and they can, they can create, you know, they can be really creative in how they bring that to their clients. That, to me is really rewarding, you know, so maybe it's creating that environment. Right. For people to thrive.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it aligns very much, Dina, with what I said about where the two of us are saying that it's just about seeing others succeed.
And that definition of success could be all over the place. But again, what bothers me is that when we get involved in files or cases, a lot of times it's moving the org from A to A and it's very exciting when we get to move them from. From A to B.
Do you want to share, Dina, a shared leadership experience that aligned with your values and defined your leadership approach?
[00:13:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Peak leadership experience. You know, I'm. I'm going to maybe share a story here for people who may not know this, but.
So in. When I was younger, in high school, I got tapped on the shoulder by my gym coach, our gym teacher, Monsieur De La Salle, one of my biggest champions.
I was in grade 11 and I was heading to France for a three month student exchange experience.
And I was on all the sport teams and I was always part of the leadership team. Never the best athlete.
I was a good contributor, but I was never the standout. But I was always part of the leadership team.
And he noticed that. So he came to me and he said, there's a leadership program in Ontario at Camp Kuching, Steve.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: I know it very well.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: You know it very well. Exactly. And he said, when you come back from France, I want you to be the, you know, president of the student council. And as it turns out, my best friend, my best male friend, who I'd been friends with since grade two, he tapped on his shoulder. So my buddy Guy and I were the president of the student council.
And I would say that in terms of a peak leadership experience. So I was amongst, I would say, some of the best athletes in Ontario. Right. These are student athletes from high school.
And a lot of these athletes went on to play a Canada game. Some became Olympians, and then there was me. So I felt a little bit like one of these things doesn't, you know, fit like the other. But do you know that at the end of our three weeks together, they had to pick.
They had to pick the one person that they wanted representing them, you know, in the closing remarks. And I was selected. So there again, you know, I share that story because I remember thinking, wow, like, I'm just not, you know, these are incredible athletes and I'm here and, and then to be picked by these athletes, what that allowed me to do was see the one thing in me that could actually make a difference in groups and being able to find my voice. I wrote a little song and I got everybody to sing it.
I'm. I have an affinity for words. So this little poem became that song. And, you know, it was really inspiring, right, to have these, these counselors come up to me after and acknowledge that, you know, we all have a role to play, and maybe we're not the standout, but we can still stand out by. Through our words, through our contribution, through, you know, our values. And that really, really stuck with me. So, you know, from, from the little Dina that was 17 years old and who she is now quite a few years later, those things were foundational. What about you, Steve? What's a peak leadership experience that really aligned with your values?
[00:16:11] Speaker B: As I mentioned in the opening, I really want to support organizations moving forward to create a better environment, more opportunities for participation, success, achievement.
And I do a lot of public speaking, and I.
And the topics that I talk about, bylaws, governance, directors, training, privacy, complaint management, like, let's be realistic. They're not as engaging or interesting interesting as training or training, environment or membership.
Membership increase. Dries. That's not the right language, but you know what I mean?
And, and over the years, I've heard on more than, more than one occasion, wow, that was great. And you've inspired me. And, and I take. I've learned so much today. And you could have filled the whole conference and not just 90 minutes or 60 minutes. And of course, you. You look at it and you go, wow, you. You people are really interesting. You want to spend hours talking about bylaws and constitutions and legislation, but I, I really appreciate that, that I can see people taking little notes and nuances out of those, those conversations. And again, I hope they take what we speak about and move that organization forward and keep doing different things. So I just. It just reinforced what I want to get out of being a part of sport law and. And that people are receptive to what we're saying and trying to make sport a better place. So I really like that. Obviously, it ties very much, Dina, into our next question. You know, what's been the most challenging leadership experience, and how did it shape you? And I still have visions. When Rachel Corbett and I, she started training me about public speaking. And I remember going to the first session, and she was doing an hour, and I was doing 10 minutes of it, and I wore a suit. A suit. And it was a good idea to wear a suit because I was sweating and nervous and really had this expectation that I'm in front of a room of 10, 20, 30, 40, 100 people, and I have to know every single answer that they ask, and I might not.
And it probably took me five years to figure out, as a leader, it's okay to say, I don't know.
That's a great question. And I will, you know, here's my email. Here's my phone number. Call me. I will follow up. I'll try and help you find that answer.
So what I found from a learning a challenging leadership experience was, again, how to mold that presentation and that conversation, particularly in a group setting and managing the fear of not having the answer.
That's something I was able to overcome and recognize saying, I don't know is okay.
And the other thing that I found challenging was sometimes people would come at us or me personally.
This is a bad idea. You did this. Well, no, I didn't do this. I did it in collaboration with your board or your members or your people who wanted to be involved in the governance committee or the bylaw committee. And I really had to learn how to remove myself personally from the decisions that were being made.
And I'm okay with taking the blame for it. You want to blame somebody, blame, blame us. I'm fine with that.
But I did have to learn how to remove myself personally and realize it was just a professional opinion and not a personal opinion, because as I've articulated throughout today's podcast, I want everyone to succeed. I want everyone to be happy. Now, that doesn't mean we are everything for everybody, because that's impossible.
But, yeah, over 24 years, yeah, there's been. There's been for sure, some learnings.
What about you, Dina? What have you found challenging in your leadership experiences?
[00:20:41] Speaker C: Well, I just want to create a bridge from you to me, so I Love the reflection of I don't know. And I was really, really scared were your words about being in front of people and saying, I don't know, and how liberating it is once we befriend the unknown and we say, you know, I don't know is actually an answer. Great question. I'm not sure what that is in this moment, and I resolve to find it out. Right. And most of the time, when you say something that honest, that authentic people like, lean in because they're. It's disruptive to actually say, I don't know.
Kind of like for me now, how silence and pausing is a. Is often a beautiful response when we're witnessing someone who's really struggling, right. Not having to fill in the space with, you know, answers that feel hollow and partial.
So. So thank you for sharing that, Steve.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: I'm.
[00:21:42] Speaker C: I'm going to take that one.
I take that one to heart.
For me, I think the one that I'll speak to now, and it's a bit vulnerable, actually, because we're going off script. We didn't plan this out, right? We just said, hey, let's have conversations and model the kind of humanistic conversations we want to have with leaders who care deeply about sport. So the, the challenge, I think, is probably led to why I left sport in, in 2006.
And, and I. Because I used to work in sport, right? I worked in sport for 15 years before I made the big leap. And then you and I had that infamous lunch with Rachel.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: And.
[00:22:23] Speaker C: And what I would say is it's the interpersonal kind of tension that, where I didn't feel maybe supported, maybe I felt the competitiveness. I can be really competitive, and in an ecosystem that is highly competitive, I kind of felt always in competition between my values of courage, compassion and community.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: And.
[00:22:51] Speaker C: And then wanting to win, wanting to be selected, wanting to not be rejected or forgotten.
And so I remember there were a few instances where, let's say I didn't make the, you know, the Olympic team as part of the mission staff. And I felt so dejected.
But, you know, the leader at the time, he's now passed, his name was Frank Radcliffe. He came into my office and sat down and he said, so, kiddo, you know, I've got some news. And it's really hard for me to let you know this, but we didn't select you for the team.
And I could feel it like an arrow to my heart, right? This rejection, the way he delivered that. Though Steve still sticks with me, you know, 30 years later, right? Almost.
It was kind the way that he shared that with me. And he also said, you know, I'd already been to a couple of games, and he said, it's okay for you not to be a part of everything. You've made such a difference already. And we also want to give this opportunity to others.
So I think when I reflect back on the things that really challenge me, it is that sticky space where often I might make an assumption about someone and the story I tell myself is, this person doesn't like me, or I'm not measuring up, and then I'm back in a competition where they have to be wrong in order for me to be right.
So I found, you know, in 2006, the. The system of sport itself was so competitive where nurturing those really positive relationships, it. It's hard. And you know, Steve, as I reflect on that, the hardest relationships, I think the ones where I was most challenged were with other women.
With the guys, it was easier.
But with some of the women, you know, some of my most deeper woundings has been working with other women and not seeing, you know, the.
Not seeing the issue or not seeing the problem, and until it was almost too late. So I learned a lot. So those were my younger years. And I'm happy to say that because of those learnings, I do a lot of work now to ensure that I'm not allowing that little itty bitty, you know, devious committee in my brain to prevent me from having the important conversation with someone, you know, the conversation we often don't want to have.
So I would say that that's been one of my most challenging leadership experiences, and it shaped me, and I feel really confident now addressing the elephant in the room.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Well, the fact that we're both acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses, I mean, just acknowledging it and speaking about it out loud is massive. That's step one, then, to manage it.
I'm going to say the easy part. I know it's not as simple as that, but it becomes that way as we start to wind up. Dina, I'm looking forward to our rapid fire session before we finish, but what's one piece of wisdom you would impact on emerging leaders?
[00:26:09] Speaker C: So my one piece of wisdom is find someone to mentor you or to coach you. I was so lucky in my younger years. So I'm going to name people like Victor Lachance, Frank Radcliffe, Bill Hirsch. Right.
I consider Karen o', Neill, Joan Duncan, you know, Ann Merklinger. So, like, way back, right, in the early days of. Of my career, these.
These leaders took the time to mentor me, femtor me, you know, give me an opportunity when others wouldn't have. And, and because of that, I had.
I could fail. Well, right. I had a safety net of people who weren't just like, here you go, figure it out. Don't mess up. They were actually people who took the time to, to give me a break. In fact, my first, I'll say it's my second job in sport was working with the Canadian Anti Doping Organization before it became the Canadian center for Ethics and Sport. And Paul Melia, you know, he, he gave me the job even though I was 24 years old. And it was a much bigger job with much bigger roles and responsibilities than my, my few years, you know, as a professional would wear, would warrant. But he could see something in me that I myself couldn't yet see. So I would say, you know, as a young leader, go and find a mentor, a teacher, you know, a coach that can support you in your evolution. I think that's really, really important. What about you, Steve?
[00:27:52] Speaker B: Of course I'm laughing, Dina, because my answer is going to be much more five feet than 30,000.
[00:27:57] Speaker C: Imagine that. Right?
[00:27:58] Speaker B: I know for emerging leaders, I, I'm going to repeat something I just said, but we're not everything for everybody. So what I would say to emerging leaders is, you know, figure out your. Why figure out your foundation from a sport organization perspective.
You know, have that foundation created. I know it's kind of the boring stuff, but strategic plans, policies, bylaws, there are a roadmap to your success. And then also know what you're trying to achieve. As I keep saying, we're not everything for everybody. I think that's okay to say that, but we're focusing on this, this and this. And yes, you have a great idea and with something we can look at once we've achieved what we've designed for this one year, two year, three year cycle. So it's about being focused, being goal oriented, and recognizing that we can't do everything at once.
So, you know, little bites and we'll get there.
And as well as you, I do advocate for the more senior leaders.
Someone gave me a chance. Someone gave you a chance. I know I speak to a lot of young people trying to get into the sport community just because I remember how hard it was for me to get an ear. So even though we may not be hiring it all the time just to even have a conversation with them, I had a, a nice gentleman reach out to me last week and said we spoke two years ago. And I helped motivate him into his future, future career, which was, to be quite, quite honest, I don't remember speaking to him, but very happy to hear that. What I said to him was very motivating.
So that's, that's really cool.
[00:29:42] Speaker C: That is cool, Steve. It, it's a reminder that we can change, we can absolutely change the trajectory of someone's life and we never know right when that's going to happen. So it's such, it's a really beautiful invitation, isn't it, for us to show up in conversation with people not knowing that that conversation might actually, it could be subtle, but it might change the trajectory of their professional life, their personal life. So I love that. All right, so the rapid fire questions. So we're going to do a few of them here. So I want to know, what's your favorite hobby, Steve?
[00:30:13] Speaker B: I just like being active. Basketball, pickleball, baseball, golf, Walking.
I just like to be active. What about you?
[00:30:23] Speaker C: So I'm gonna pick a different. You have to pick a different one.
So pick a different question.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: Oh, I have to.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
What's your favorite food?
[00:30:30] Speaker C: Oh, hands down, my husband's steak. So he makes the best steak. So it's a filet mignon and I only eat 4 ounces. It has to be medium rare, paired with, like, grilled vegetables with a little bit of oil and, you know, some, some seasoning and, and then a really nice, you know, bottle of full bodied. So these days it might be a cab sauvignon or something else, but yeah, that, that absolutely is my favorite food.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Not that you've thought about that.
[00:31:01] Speaker C: Yeah, not that I've thought about that at all. What's your favorite movie?
[00:31:06] Speaker B: That's a loaded answer. So I, I, there's always the classic answer, Usual Suspects, Shawshank Redemption. But I, I, when I see them on tv, I, I tend not to watch them because you already know the, the great outcomes. But I.
Rocky. Over and over again.
Superhero movies. Over and over again. Terminator. I like to say I'm a two star guy and very happy to watch.
[00:31:32] Speaker C: I didn't know that about you. That's great.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Mindless Entertainment movie.
[00:31:37] Speaker C: You're a two star guy.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: Okay, absolutely.
Some of the, when they, when they announce the Oscar movies, usually I, I've seen none of them. Oh, that's funny.
Dina. Favorite song.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: Oh, my favorite song is.
Okay, so I'm gonna say a Beautiful Day by you two reminds me of my sister Tracy. And so I always, I always come back to that. It was part of her wedding, you know, song and everything. So it's I have a special place in my heart whenever I think of you two. And it brings me back to those special moments with Tracy.
Steve, what is your favorite animal?
[00:32:17] Speaker B: Oh, easy dog.
Big dog lover.
Enjoy taking my dog for a walk, particularly when it's warmer out. Grab, put on a podcast, have a nice walk through the park. It's always nice to disconnect for for about an hour.
And Dina, favorite book?
[00:32:35] Speaker C: Oh gosh, there's so many. Is it wrong for me to say my favorite book is the one I wrote on grief and loss?
You know, I do want to put that in there because it feels like I gave birth to that. It took me, you know, 20 years almost to write that book on grief and loss.
But no kidding aside, I would say my favorite book is probably Gone with the Wind.
I just love, you know, if I could have been born into a different era, it might have been, you know, some, some place back then when those women who had a head on their shoulder could stand up to social injustice and make a, make a difference in many different ways and, and yet still have to play a role and a part and yeah, so I really love that book.
Maybe the last one for you. Steve, favorite ritual.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: I was going to go back to the dog walking. I just like the disconnect part. I know I've said that I do like, I just like disconnecting and being mindless sometimes. We're particularly. I'm always thinking, I'm always have a hard time turning my brain off. So when I have the opportunity to do that through sport, through being active, that that's really important to me.
So Dina, this was a lot of fun. I know it was a very much unscripted which is probably the best way to do these things and looking forward to throwing these questions at emerging and current leaders in the sports system. Thank you to our listeners.
This is the end of our 2025 pod.
I still scold you, Dina, for making me do this bi weekly, but it is, it is a lot of fun and I think this is episode 60 63, which is really cool. And again, thanks to everybody and you and Robin and everybody who puts this together.
In the episode notes below, you'll find some sport law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. Thank you to our listeners. We're so grateful to share our vision of the Sportopia with you and to.
[00:34:40] Speaker C: Elevate sport as always to have your say in Sportopia. Please email us at HelloPortLaw CA to let us know what you want to hear next and who you want to hear from.
So have a wonderful holiday season and we so look forward to connecting with you in the New Year.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: It.
