Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indig at Sport Law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:39] Speaker C: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: We're delighted to host inspiring conversations with some of Canada's most experienced and humanistic leaders. Today's guest, Camille Martins, is a former Canadian rhythmic gymnast and 1996 Olympian who represented Canada for more than a decade, winning Commonwealth Games gold before competing at the Olympic Games.
Over the next 30 years, she experienced sport from nearly every perspective as an athlete, coach, judge, club owner, mentor and parent. She recently launched her book, MVP in the becoming the parent your child needs in sport. And Camille is also co founder of Next Peak Living, where she and her husband Benoit are exploring how we create the conditions for growth, excellence and human flourishing. Welcome to Sportopia. Camille. We're so glad you're here.
[00:01:38] Speaker D: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: So, Steve, we often have this thing, right.
What's coming across your desk? Do you want to kick us off this morning?
[00:01:47] Speaker C: I will start. I will start.
I have a meeting this week and it's a recurring. It's a recurring question or query from clients is it's the removal of a board member, but not necessarily going through the calling of a special meeting of members asking for a majority vote of those members who attend.
It's trying to being proactive of that in this particular situation, the individual is being a little aggressive towards staff, is going outside the directions of the board, acting a bit independently, outside the scope of the board and doesn't usually and interesting enough, doesn't routinely attend board meetings. So it's an interesting conversation and one that I want to talk about is that most if not all board of directors positions are voluntary. So, hey, Dina, I know you meant well and you thought you had time to put into being a director of this organization, but it's just not working out. Do you think you would be willing to resign? And a lot of times that's a very difficult conversation, but far better than calling a special meeting of the members waiting 21 days trying to get quorum and then airing the reasons why a director should be removed. It's really not in the best interest of the organization. So the conversation on Wednesday will likely be about options other than asking, other than calling the special meeting and but really It. It just depends on the person.
So how about you, Dina? What's happening?
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Well, it's right up my alley, Steve. Right. Usually you call me and you're like, you're not going to believe this, because by the time, you know, it becomes a legal issue, a lot of the humanistic kind of things that we could have done first, like address it. And I'm sure, you know, Camille will speak to us about that. And what we know is it's really hard to fire a volunteer because. And you feel like you take personal offense because you're giving of your time and your heart, and usually in the case of sport, you're connecting with people, like, through your children. So I can see, Steve, that a lot of the time. I'm so glad that you're reminding them before you pull the trigger for this extraordinary measure. Maybe we can have conversations right
[00:04:12] Speaker C: at the end of the day, Dina. That's always the way to do it. It's easier, it's less hassle. It's not a lot of drama within the organization. But the hammer, if they do decide to say no, that is, unfortunately, the hammer.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, well, from the hammer to the silk glove, I'm doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that. So fall is usually a time we get asked to speak, to teach, to educate, to write. And I'm doing a. A little bit of all of those things. So this week, I'm sinking my teeth into getting ready for an upcoming workshop on crisis management.
I'm getting ready to finalize a keynote that I'm doing the following week. And I'm also doing quite a bit more writing for clients, so some not strategic planning, but more strategic thinking. And I really like being a bit of that ghostwriter thinking, partner behind the scenes. So that's what's coming across my desk. What about you, Camille?
[00:05:13] Speaker D: This week I am trying to finish the recording for the audiobook, and also we've been working on the French translation, so we've been busy with that. And I have four podcasts this week, so we're busy doing all of those things. And it's been a beautiful fall, so hoping to get outside and enjoy some of the great crisp weather.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's. For us here in Ontario, it's like we're having the summer we didn't have in August. It's so much nicer this month than. Than it was in. In the late summer.
So, you know, Camille, maybe tell us a little bit more about you. I mean, we know that you've you were an athlete. And fun fact. You and I were in Victoria in 1994. I was part of the communications team. I was a media attache. And that's when had. I'm thinking it might have been a personal best. Like, you were the. The athlete that walked away with the most medals. If I. If memory serves me correctly.
[00:06:16] Speaker D: Yeah. Commonwealth Games was an incredibly special memory for me because my parents didn't have the finances to see competitions very often. And so because it was in British Columbia, they were able to be there, along with a lot of different family members and friends. And then for it to be so close and to be able to have, you know, real life witnesses at something that very rarely happened with my sport. Most of the big competitions are in Europe, and so it was a very cool experience to be able to have that and to be at home.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think Steve's gonna warm you up with some questions. Maybe. I wonder before we go there, in what way did your experience as an athlete really prepare you for parenting your children in a way that really reflected maybe some of the ethos that's in your book?
[00:07:06] Speaker D: Well, I think, you know, sport is not neutral, and it is very, very much an opportunity for accelerated growth if used correctly. And I think I had the chance to witness a lot of things that I would want to replicate and a lot of things I would not.
I had a chance to train not only in Canada, but also a lot of time in Eastern Europe and with the different philosophies in the way our sport was at that time.
Technically, I was gifted the opportunity of being exposed to another level of excellence. But emotionally, mentally, and physically, there were definitely some things that should have been a lot healthier. And so for me, I think both as a parent and as a coach, it came in with the goal of being the change of using the parts that I loved and trying to redefine what's possible without fear and manipulation kind of as the main, main motivators.
[00:08:05] Speaker C: Mila, I want to know a little bit. I want to dig a little deeper. I don't know you that well, and I want to know. You know, since Commonwealth Games, you know, we're in your bio, we talk about you coaching and writing a book. So what have you been doing the last. How's my math? 30 years?
[00:08:23] Speaker D: Well, after. After the Olympic Games, I finished the Olympics quite disillusioned. I had subluxed my hip prior to the Games. Did not have a good performance at the Olympics.
You know, I left home when I was 11 years old to Train. And so having kind of had a very unique childhood and felt separated from my parents. And for me, my sport was something that was 100% my own. My mom was a violinist, my dad's an English and psychology teacher.
They had never been very serious athletes of any kind and did not have any big ambitions for their child to do so. But it was very much driven by me. And as such, I think I felt a big need to protect the people in my environment because I wanted so badly to keep going, and it was my thing, and I wanted to be in a place where I could continue to chase those dreams and those feelings. And so I went out of that both excited and disillusioned and definitely a little tainted, and decided that I wanted to come back. Because in Vernon, there was no rhythmic gymnastics program, which is a part of why I had wanted to become a coach. And it was this town that fundraised and did all the things that made my dreams possible. And so I wanted to come and give back and to offer an alternative, to be able to look at a sport that traditionally had not had the opportunity for seeing things, maybe for. From a different lens. And I wanted to do that. So I started a gymnastics club and ran that for 30 years.
It was a huge opportunity to be able to spend incredible amounts of time with individuals during key growth stages. And in our sport, you have kids for anywhere between one and 20 years.
And so when you have 20 years of time with an individual between, you know, 15 and 30 hours a week, you have an extraordinary influence on how they think about the world and kind of who they become.
And so I took that with a lot of reverence and definitely how my intentions were always pure. Right now, I'm kind of wrestling with the difference sometimes between intentions and impact. And even when we have the desire to do everything well, the way in which that can be received from even two people in the identical room at the identical time can be so different.
And so I did that. I did a lot of leadership, was working with the BC Federation, variety of different roles, including president of the federation, worked with Gymnastics Canada on a lot of different committees, domestic development, did some development for nccp, speaking, judging, kind of all of the different parts. I really was excited to get a voice at a lot of those tables. And so I kept saying, yes, yes, yes. And about a year ago, I ended up having a variety of different health problems and realized that always saying yes was something that was no longer healthy for my own body. And so, after some deep reflection, my husband and I sold Everything. And we went on a sabbatical year, which is kind of what we've been doing for the last year.
[00:11:39] Speaker C: Oh, very nice. That's so good to hear.
Can you talk a little bit, Camille, about, you know, sport, athlete, coach, judge, volunteer, committee member and you stop and what was that transition like? Because, you know, we all like to think we're athletes in some level or, and a coach for me personally still, and it becomes a part of our identity, who we are, what we've done, what we've accomplished. And then you stopped.
[00:12:09] Speaker D: Yeah, it was definitely, it's. I mean, I think I'm still on that journey of, you know, redefining what parts of that can grow useful purpose in the next stage of my life and also reflecting kind of on what I learned during that journey. For me, I'm somebody who doesn't like to do things part way. And the fact that, you know, my doctor said you don't have to quit, but you need to do less, I just thought, oh, that sounds horrible.
And so I was like, maybe it's time to redefine what I want to do at this next stage and how we want to kind of approach this next stage of life. And for me, I was kind of cut and dry. I emailed the B.C. federation and Canadian Federation, said I'm resigning from all of the different committees and boards I'm on.
And I informed all the people in my own private club and you know, put the property up for sale. So it was kind of a, a full meal deal. And I'm, I'm still adjusting to the realities of that being true.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: While you're speaking my, my love language, a lot of the work I do is helping people navigate the messy in between of life and transition.
And the saying goodbye and learning how to say goodbye is like it's new muscles, especially for top performers like the three of us, four of us on the call, you know, it, it really is a, a and in our structures we are often rewarded for speed and outcomes. You know, how much can you produce? And if you produce a lot, you're going to consume more. So it is interesting, you know, Camille, that you're in this period of reflection, of contemplation and out of that came next peak living this very thoughtful, very hopeful, very intentional. You know, it feels like I want to use the word curated offer to the world that's really about helping people kind of contemplate what's my next? What's my next project? What's my next, you know, fun experience. So maybe say more A little bit, you know, a bit more about next peak living.
[00:14:15] Speaker D: Well, both my husband and I come from sport backgrounds. He was a snowboarder at the beginning of snowboarding, you know, went to the first European cup, was the first European on the pro American tour, so way back then, and something he's done his entire life as well. And so both of us draw from a variety of different experiences and we just felt like what is the way in which all of those learnings could facilitate giving back? Giving back. Well, and what is lacking? What is it that people sometimes feel so disconnected from or afraid of?
And my wish for people is always that they harness the joy in that process of the unknown. And I think it can be scary.
I know right now not having everything so clear. You know, I was the 10 year plan person who really did that for a really long time and set my goals and went towards them with a lot of velocity. And as someone who proudly identified as an energizer bunny who never got tired and could always do, you know, more things and didn't need sleep, I'm rethinking some of those, those patterns and what drove me to, to be so intense in some of those ways and how. I'm really curious right now about how do we give ourselves to things fully, allowing ourselves to be changed and influenced by them, because if not, what's the point? But without allowing them to steal parts of ourselves along the way. So I'm curious about what that can look like as, as I move forward and kind of, you know, maybe experimenting with boundaries for one of the first times in my life.
[00:16:04] Speaker C: I really want to know the answer, Camille. I really want to know the answer when you, when you solve it. So please keep us up to date.
You know, you do have a book that's out MVP in the stands. It didn't really start off as a book. It grew out of the work you were doing with clubs and coaches and to work more intentionally with parents and culture.
Tell us about the book. How did it come to be? What's it about?
[00:16:32] Speaker D: Well, we were in Indonesia and I had received a variety of different emails from different clubs asking for me to advise on their club handbooks. One of the things that, that we did very intentionally was try to communicate well and beautifully through the handbook that we had for our sport club. And I received messages from people in my sport, but also from people in other sports at the same time. And because I'm somebody who believes so much in sharing, I felt like, oh, I'll just send them my 80 page handbook that I spent 30 years growing and developing, which is something I have done before.
And there was something inside of me that wanted to stop because it felt on some level inauthentic. I wanted to be able to actually facilitate them writing their own that would grow organically. So I started writing more of a guidebook on how to write your handbook. You know, how is it that you come up with a creed, how is it that you come up with a mantra or the keywords, and how are you going to define those keywords so that they're unanimously understood in your organization and so that you make sure everyone's using the same vocabulary. And. And as I started writing this guidebook, I kept making notes on I wish parents knew this. You know, when I wrote this page of our handbook, what I was really hoping is that I could say this or impart that.
And I ended up diverting and having over 400 pages of just writing. And it was like my husband was joking because I was in Indonesia and he's like, wow, you're the next volcano. Because we had been having this really chill time with no intention of starting to work sooner. And I was waking up at 3am and couldn't stop writing. And so it was an interesting shift where all of a sudden I think having a tiny bit of perspective by backing up and not having individual parents in my mind. So instead of it being, you know, one parent who, oh, I wrote that for that parent in this situation, and then it ended up in the handbook, I was able to really dig more into what could have equipped that parent better before that moment.
And so looking at how often conflict happens with parents and how in sport we spend time, money and effort educating the judges and the referees, we spend time, energy and effort educating or re educating coaches. And we spend a lot of time giving opportunities and education to athletes. And there's more parents than there are anyone else in sport. There's, you know, every athlete comes with, you know, between two and four parents and as well they often come with grandparents. And so I started looking into, you know, what has been written on this and what kind of tools do they have and felt like it was a really underserved area. And so I ended up looking at it not as a guidebook, which is interesting because the handbook was definitely a guidebook, an exact how to. I don't think we can do a how to on becoming. I think that every individual is so different. I think every interaction between the coach, athlete, parent triangle is so unique and the personality types and the experiences and the lenses.
And so I tried to really offer it more as an invitation to awareness with a self reflective tone, overall sharing stories. You know, I been lucky enough to experience sport as an athlete, as a parent, as a coach, and have failed miserably in all of those and had success in all of those. And so I am not by any means preaching from the mountaintop with all the answers. I just think that there's a lot of conversations that people don't feel there's room for and they get into intense situations where they feel there's so much at stake.
And I think their ability to come back to the real essence of what it is they're doing and why is something, something worth paying attention to and considering. And I know we can't take blinders off of people who have certain perspectives locked in, but we can at least maybe poke some holes. So
[00:20:41] Speaker B: yeah, that's really powerful. It's a trip down memory lane. You know, I was one of the early leaders of something that's now become true sport. Before that, it was spirit of sport. You may remember that Camille, because we, we traveled across, you know, had signatures to help encourage the adults in the room to really support the children and the young people in the pursuit of their goals and dreams in a holistic way. And that, that's like 30 years ago and now, you know, maybe through the lens of maltreatment, really trying to prevent harm.
What I love about your book is it's an invitation to be really intentional about what do I want for my child, what is my role in supporting the achievement of their full potential and can I dose it in a way that's really healthy, age appropriate, and when I, you know, feel this uprise in anger or, you know, embarrassment, if my child messes up, what do I do then? So I think it's really helpful for us to be aware of our little itty bitty, you know, what committee and how through the, you know, I think unlike school, where we're not there as a, as a bit, in a bit of a glass incubator, seeing our children in a classroom and judging the teacher for how they're teaching our children, we do that right in sport, it is a bit of a unique setting where you get to have a immediate opinion.
And so that's why things like the 24 hour rule, you know, that hockey started to institutionalize and other really good practices so that we can, we can take a moment and be a little bit more intentional about how do we want to show up as really helpful parents. For these children that we love so much. Right.
[00:22:30] Speaker D: I just think that, you know, the power and possibility of that role is so huge. And I think so often parents say that they feel all I do is write checks and drive.
And I hear that frequently from, you know, whether it was my son's soccer teams or freestyle skiing or, you know, my own sport and other sports I've had the chance to be around. I think that's a really common feeling. And in that, I think that's very deflating. And I think the power and possibility of that role, if they can understand it and harness it, it will literally be the shift in sport culture that allows, I think, a lot of other shift, because I think often people are on defense when parents come at them, or that's their perception of them coming at them as opposed to joining them to help facilitate the athletes. I think that if. If they can actually understand ways to respectfully engage and really to. To evaluate their impact and ultimately on their relationship with their child, what. What they can facilitate is so. So large.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember. So I think all of us have coached, right? Because that's what we do. We coach our children. And with my eldest daughter's soccer team, I would always ask, ask the young girls, what side of the pitch do you want to start on? And you know what their question was? What side of the pitch are the parents? Because they didn't want to start on that side because of the. And so I became a bit of a bridge to the parents trying to coach them, you know, through Team snap. I would do this whole debrief and remind them and. And do so in a way that was kind but also clear, because in the absence of this cheer, to your point, Camille and Steve, like, we. We don't get the playbook. You know, we get the what to expect when you're expecting. It's like, what should I expect when my kids, you know, goes to school? Well, I have those point of references, but, you know, I don't know about the two of you, but my parents never really judged me. They. I was lucky if they came to some of my sporting events, and, you know, they. They. They just let me go out and play now. Everything is so program and ritualized, and people have a stake in their children. And I think one of the things we have to be really mindful of is not living vicariously through our child. Right. That. That can cause a lot of fracture and pressure. That leaves the child wanting to leave, not wanting to stay.
[00:24:54] Speaker D: Yeah. And I think that when. I mean, the moment if the parent, I mean, I think regulation is the biggest job of the parent. Their own first and then their child's.
And I think their ability to do that starts with awareness. And so what am I feeling? How can I process this before it gets to my child? Or how can I set it aside so that I can allow my child to have the experience? Because the moment that there's any adult, whether it's a coach that's ill equipped or a parent that's ill equipped in those, in those tools, I think what happens is the child starts managing the adults in the room, and in that moment, they're no longer managing their sporting journey. So that amount of energy, time and effort is suddenly diverted into something that isn't growing. What everyone's actually hoping they grow.
[00:25:38] Speaker C: Camille, if you haven't listened to the podcast, Dean and I joke that I'm at 3ft and she's at 30,000ft. And I want to just take what you just said back to the three foot level. What are some tips for parents or athletes for that matter? We'll talk about coaches and leaders next. But what are some tips for parents to contemplate? You know, my son plays baseball. So he hits a base hit. You know, you're, you're jumping around. If he strikes out, you're, you're, you're, you're sad or you're disappointed. You know, how do we, how do we manage that? What are the, what are the, the teachings, the learnings?
[00:26:18] Speaker D: You know, I was enjoying watching the US Open, and in the final match, one of the athletes, his dad was his coach, and he smiles the entire time and it's very conscious. You can see this has been a decision. I'm, I get to watch my kid play, and I am lucky to be here and enjoying watching him play. And you can see when he made mistakes, or you could see when he had a good one, the, the body language and the response stayed. It's interesting because he also is the coach, so he has a very complicated role.
And what was so interesting to me watching that is he really didn't break. He had decided very clearly that whatever happens in this match, I get to watch my son in a final at something we've dreamed of our whole lives. And I think that deciding sometimes those things ahead of time can make a huge difference. Deciding to remember, why are we doing sport? What is the level of investment that we're putting here? And what is it that I really hope my kid gains? Because I mean, the investment in time, energy, heart, the spiritual ambition, to, you know, become the best version of yourself. If all of those things are at the forefront. I mean a scholarship or a professional career or games actually seem like a really ridiculous kind of value to attribute to all of this effort. And so you know, deep down what, what is it that's causing your family to invest at this level and how do you stay attached to that? And I think it's an individual answer. I don't think that, that in that way it's the same everyone, but making sure that it stays their own. I think, you know, that they are the ones driving this bus. Not when they're exhausted and tired and whining after practice. I think, you know, then it's our job to listen and not necessarily a call to action, but ultimately that we can allow them to choose which, which direction they want to go and to, to be in charge of that and to really be aware that our actions have far greater impact when we talk about others, when we talk about the game, when we blame, when we make excuses. All of those things filter into the mindset and a fear based often response. Because I mean, who doesn't want to please their parents? We all want to please our parents.
And so I think just the more we can become aware and make good practices of self reflection. I don't think anybody's going to get it right. I don't think I got it right. I don't think I've ever seen a parent be perfect all the way through. But I think the parents that remain curious about how to do well in those roles and continue to chase learning about what tools they need, I think they can really, really make a big shift.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: So our last question feels very similar, your response probably to what you just shared. Because whether you're a sport leader or coach or a parent, a lot of what you just shared in terms of the impact that we want to have on the child, on the young ad, maybe we can look at, you know, what would need to be true for, for us to achieve this version of, you know, holistic relationship with, with the, with the athlete. What would need to shift in terms of us measuring success?
[00:29:34] Speaker D: I think again, we're all different in terms of how we really define that. For me, I mean when I look at confidence, my definition of confidence is different than a lot of people.
I remember a mom explaining to me once that she had put her daughter into a very external kind of activity and she had done it to build her confidence. And I just remember bursting out laughing, you know, I didn't hold myself well And I was like, wow. We have very different definitions of confidence.
And for me, I would define confidence, true confidence in an athlete, as someone who is willing to disappoint the people around them in order to be true to themselves.
So they are willing to do the thing that they know is really, truly the best inside of themselves, even if it means not doing what their parents, they perceive their parents want, or not doing what their coach or the environment around them wants. But really having that agency and autonomy and confidence in that, to me, is the biggest sign of confidence. And that's what I would wish for athletes when they go on to the rest of their lives, that they would be able to trust themselves in hard situations and remain curious. And so I think, I wish so much for people to just have that curiosity and be able to not feel the pressure to always nail everything so perfectly, but to enjoy the journey for all of those reasons that every experience is an offering that allows us to learn more about ourselves. And sometimes it might be a part of ourselves that we want to find a way to dismantle so that we can move higher.
But learning ways to do that without invoking shame, I think is the fun of sort of coaching and parenting.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know about you, Steve, but my. My heart's all warm and fuzzy. This was really an exquisite conversation that reminds me about my time in sport and why I chose to do what I did for 30 plus years and why I chose to put my children inside sport and why I continue to believe that when we bring that kind of, you know, intention and integrity, then the outcome, you know, the outcomes will follow. Especially if there are outcomes based on what you were saying and speaking to flourishing human beings that thrive because of the sport experience, not in spite of it. So thank you so much, Camille. I know. We're going to turn to Steve's favorite part of this conversation.
[00:32:09] Speaker C: Yes, Camille, this is my favorite part. We're going to ask you some rapid fire questions. Don't think too hard, just respond. Just a little bit of fun.
And this first question is very apropos based on your introduction. Your favorite travel spot
[00:32:25] Speaker D: right now, I would say Indonesia for sure.
Sorry. We were up in Sulawesi. It's a northern island. It's not the main part where everybody goes. It's about a six hour flight north and it was, it was just otherworldly. It was unbelievable.
[00:32:39] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna add that one to my list. Your favorite motivational saying?
[00:32:44] Speaker D: Ooh, be the change.
[00:32:46] Speaker C: Favorite movie?
[00:32:48] Speaker D: Princess Bride or Chariots of Fire.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Oh, I love that.
And your favorite food,
[00:32:57] Speaker D: mangoes.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Okay, that's quite delightful,
[00:33:01] Speaker C: I hope.
Thank you, Camille, for being here today.
We really appreciate your time and what you what you did in sport and what you're doing in sport and what you'll continue to do in sport. So we really appreciate it.
In the episode notes below, you'll find some Sport Law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today and a link to Camille's book. Thank you so much to our listeners. We are so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you and to elevate sport.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: As always, to have your say in Sportopia. Email us at helloportlaw ca to let us know what you want to hear about next. Have a wonderful week and we look forward to connecting again soon. Until then, be well.
It.
