Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Vindig at Sport Law.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Leave me a message, I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker C: Hey Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: We're delighted to have Guy Bradbury join us today. Guy is a global instructor, educator and Olympic referee in volleyball and also the lead@referee coaching.com Prior to that, Guy was the CEO of the Ontario Soccer association and the general manager and COO of the Sport alliance of Ontario.
Also, Guy was one of the first people 24 years ago to give this young lawyer an opportunity to make waves in the sport community. So I am very, very happy to have you here today, Guy. Thanks for your time.
Before we turn it over to you, Dina, the infamous question, what is coming across your desk this week?
[00:01:32] Speaker C: Well, Steve, you always say it's all about policies, policies, policies, and these days it's all about governance, governance and governance.
So I'm wrapping up a three part series with a client where we've been focusing on aspects of good governance. So I did the first part really talking about the systems and structures that underpin what it means to govern an organization. And it was about 65 people or so online. It's a national sport organization with all their PTSOs and really great dialogue and questions. Then Jason took over session number two and focused on risk management.
I'll be closing things up on Wednesday, I think this week to speak about management by values and culture.
So I'm really excited, excuse me, about the focus on organizations wanting to be more proactive as it relates to governance. What about you, Steve?
[00:02:31] Speaker A: Very, very similar response. I had the opportunity last week to meet with a client who was struggling with the difference between governance and operations. They were an organization that I would call a bit of a. Have they had staff and more than one yet? The board was very, very much involved in the oper and I was trying to help them distinguish the role of the board and the role of the staff. And you could still see a lot of people really wanting to hold on to that, that portfolio, that operational portfolio.
And so it will be a bit of a challenge to see where we get to. It may end up being a bit of a hybrid model if people aren't willing to let go of that operational role, to take on what, you know, I've said several times before, seriously, and Jokingly that being a board member is boring because strap plans and budgets and policy development may not be for everybody. It's the operational side that's exciting.
But there is a place for everybody in a sport organization.
It may not necessarily be at the board level, but on an operational committee or assisting the staff in the operational side. But we'll see where we get to.
So Guy, before you tell us what's coming across your desk, tell us a little bit about yourself. And again, thank you for being here, Dina.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Steve, thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been a lifelong sport administrator. I was originally from Newfoundland, Labrador. I used to be the director of parks recreation for the city of St. John's and then moved to Ontario with the Sport alliance of Ontario which you had mentioned, and on to the Ontario Soccer Association.
For the last dozen years or so I've been really involved in referee education and referee development, particularly developing a, a tool, a platform that is solely used for sport, sport officials.
The rules are.com and over those, this last 12 years or so I've really been involved with international volleyball at the FIVB level, at the Ontario volleyball level too as well and continue to contribute for, for Volleyball Canada.
So I, you know, basically I've been a sport administrator all my life, but the last dozen years or so I found a space with referee education and referee coaching.
[00:04:54] Speaker C: Oh, that's wonderful. And if, if we were to ask you what's coming across your desk this week, Guy, what are you focusing on?
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting, you just talked about culture and, and governance and, and commitment and, and where people fit within various organizations. I've just sort of started something called referee coaching.com but one of the key features within that is, or one of the key. My, my key beliefs is that referees and sport officials in general, and I work mainly at the high performance level do need some type of support beyond their, the rules of understanding the rules of the game. And it was very interesting this week I read an article that was on the BBC about high performance footballers, particularly footballers in the Premier League.
Some now have developed relationships with coaches outside of their organization with outside of the, the club structure. And what I talked about was having a safe environment to work in beyond just always the stress of having performance and trying to make, you know, the starting 11 each week. And so it was having that space where they could focus on details in areas which they can trust which based on that would give them the competitive edge and when they go back to their normal training.
So but the objective is not to Replace the team and the organizational support they get, but to complement it.
And for the last number of years I've always thought that would be something really strong for sport officials, not just in volleyball, but in officials for all sports.
So it would be the same objectives like really focusing on that decision making for referees, focusing on how to manage the moment. And these are things which sport officials do not get a chance to look at or, or engage themselves in, you know, post match or post game or week to week. So I really feel that, you know, taking if it's good enough for high performance sport officials, sorry, high performance athletes, if it's good enough for people like Rory McElroy or Brooks Henderson or Djokovic, they all have individual sport of coaches outside of their mentors, outside of their support staff that help them week to week on the technical aspects of being a high performance athlete. And I think that there could be some space here for sport officials as well.
[00:07:36] Speaker C: Well, that's really inspiring. And so we understand your passion for refereeing and umping and the officials because we know if there's no ref, there's no game.
And what you're speaking to around proactive measures, support for the long term, officiating, development, making sure that they have peer to peer support, all of those things are kind of aspects of what Steve and I have been advocating for for quite some time around leadership development for for instance. Right?
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:08:08] Speaker C: So maybe share a little bit more about what motivated you to develop referee coaching.com and what is it that people get if they, you know, join your, your program.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: I was very fortunate to be a referee coach at the Paris Olympics and there we had all, you know, the premier referees in the world for, for volleyball.
At the end of one day we were out for, for supper and a referee who had, who had actually officiated Olympic gold medal matches, world championship matches.
Within the fivb we have a professional national league which we call Volleyball Nations League.
That person has done the gold medal there.
And then after dinner he came and sat next to me and asked me a question was Guy, how can I improve my officiating?
And I was really taken back, taken back by that. This person would ask me how I could help him or if I had any advice for him to become a improve his performance of referee because he was already at, at the very highest level.
And it sort of took me, it took me back a bit. But I'd done some work with Volleyball Canada and the international referees within Volleyball Canada. You know, one of our struggles here is that we do not have the same level, a consistency level of playing and competition as some of our colleagues in different countries in the world because most of them have professional leagues. So I've done, I have already completed some work with Volleyball Canada around this.
So I was able to take that experience and apply it to my colleague at the Olympics. But this got me thinking that hey, maybe I have some other type of skill that I can provide support, just not here to volleyball, but to all officials.
Because refereecoaching.com is really a multi sport, non technical 1v1 coaching service where officials can come, we can talk.
It's all it really is looking at a platform and a pathway to help them improve their decision making.
[00:10:32] Speaker C: And so thank you for sharing that. We can feel your, you know, your generosity and your commitment to be in and of service. So what do people receive so they, they book a session with you? Is it kind of like the work that myself and the leadership coaches do where we're understanding what are people's needs and what their, you know, their goals and objectives are when they work with you?
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Certainly, you know what, I've created something called the referee self assessment platform profile. And this is where a referee were, a sport official would go through a number of, there's a number of criteria or a number of, of dimensions with, within the, within, you know, within the, the profile itself. And the profile is not technical. It's not about their understanding of the rules, it's not about the application of the rules. But it talks about such things as game management skills, your professional development. Certainly technical proficiency is there, communication skills, their general health, how do they work when they're on the road, how do they work when they're at a competition so that they're always at the highest level of what teams are expecting.
Their personal readiness and commitment. And again we, a little bit of our pre discussion here was about, you know, how, how much am I committed because I, I am providing a service, I'm a service provider in, in a very global scale here, looking at mental clarity and trust and the trust is really within yourself, you know, that inner thought. And I think I've heard you talk about that before, Dina, of, of how people manage that and then that mental and emotional resilience. And often we hear talking to referees about what happens when I get in a difficult situation, how do I get out, you know, what's my reset point and what I'm able to do is based on the completion of the profile, I'm able to put referees on a, on a quadrant sort of. And this is something that came from my postgraduate work when I was at the University of Waterloo where we looked at situational management and that one size does not fit all. So what I'm able to do is be able to place a sport official with, on this grid. And based on where they fit upon the grid, I either give them, you know, they can get very direct educational, instructional, type of support. Most of the referees I work with would not be in this area, but there are some developing and, and it's just not that again the one size fits all. It's just some referees who would whistle here in Canada might be a whole lot different when they whistle internationally. So each stage of their development is based on their maturity and their understanding of, of the dynamics of that particular moment. And then I'm able to take referees through this particular quadrant system and once I recognize where they fit within the quadrant, now we're able to give some personalized coaching, you know, to, to that particular point to help them meet their goals. And of course, as you, you spoke about, it's a, it's about, you know, what do they want to get out of it, what's their goals, what's their objectives, where they feel that they need, need some type of support. And then based on the quadrant system and based upon their profile, I'm able to give detailed support for wherever they fit within that system.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Guy in the, in the pre production of today's podcast we talked about some articles and we talked specifically I had mentioned about the NBA was given some positive press for allowing their officials to attend practice.
And the feedback from the players and the coaches was excellent and same as a learning experience for, for those NBA officials.
And one of the things that I'm taking out of what you're saying about the opportunity to have a personal referee coach, that's, that's great.
I'm obviously very positive about that. But then there's the practical side. So how do I get, how do I get referees in front of opportunities to learn? As we spoke about before, a lot of the learning happens in game.
How do we get organizations to bring in referees to practice learning opportunities?
Is it advocating directly with the PSO or the nso?
Is it working with you to help, you know, decide on what that looks like for the official to help guide them through some real life experience?
[00:15:16] Speaker B: You know, I've, I've talked to many coaches and coaches would welcome the opportunity. Coaches see referees, you know, as a provider, but also as very important to their success.
And I'll speak about my volleyball experience here we recently just hosted a, a session with the OVA, the OUA and the OCAA where we had about 50 referees in attendance and we had four coaches. And we talked about this and one of the referees brought up, you know, you guys get, get the practice and these, these athletes and coaches are, you know, practicing close to 30 hours a week and plus whatever other preparation they're, they're doing. So you know, for volleyball, the, you know, this is our highest level and the coaches are really committed. So we, we did speak about, you know, how referees can be engaged and the coaches were very open to say, hey, if you want to come to my practice, please come. And that's because the coaches themselves, they want referees to improve. They want referees to provide that quality service because they're working so hard and they really would, they do not want a decision of a referee to impact the outcome of their match.
So in terms of this, this is really where the structural aspect of our sport organizations come in about providing this facilitation that referees, that there is a relationship between coaches and teams and referees to come visit, come on a Thursday night and whistle some of our scrimmages. And some of the discussions I had with OUA coaches, for example, next year for, for 2026, we've even talked about having just what you talked about, Steve, with the NBA of having a preseason referee tournament just for the teams would come and play. They may not be a full game. There may be, you know, we may adjust the, the game some way, but it really is about having the referees have that opportunity. But without having a referee coach there, it's a wasted opportunity because referees will, will not know what they need to improve or.
And I, I really look at the decision making process because that's what referees do and how we chunk down the referee decision making progress process. And this is something which I've done through refereecoaching.com is that part of the pathway of the referee continuum is a decision making profile. And it really talks about, you know, routine decisions, predictable decisions, unusual decisions, something I call something called a jackal decisions. And this is when all heck blows up, that referees have to learn how to manage and then looking at emergency decisions. So there is this pathway that we're able to work with referees to get them to understand the decision that's in front of them. And once they understand the decision that's in front of them, they have a response.
It's not a reaction.
So I understand the moment, I'm able to recognize it, then I'm able to put it within the real context and then I'm able to make that decision and live by it.
[00:18:40] Speaker C: Yeah, there's a lot there guy, that you're speaking to. And it reminds me years ago when long term athlete development was emerging as a framework to put many of the individuals national sport organization's pathways into a consistent kind of formula, if you will, that each of the NSOs and sports could adopt to their own unique needs. But at least there was consistency in the framework. And what I would offer is it feels like with the benefit of time, we really should have been advocating for long term people development.
So alongside the athlete pathway, having a progression for officials and coaches and parents really who are the caretakers for the kids at such a formative time in their lives right around their development. So what's interesting for me is we used to, we talked about this earlier. Sport officials Canada, there was a national body who served as an advocacy group to help ensure that officials had voice and choice with respect to their development criteria, some form of professional education.
And that went through the wayside several years ago. And it's interesting because having served dozens now of national sport organizations around risk management, I can say that one of the high level risks is a lack of officials.
People are worried both at national levels, but also at the community level. And we know that the level of engagement at the community is a predictor of whether or not people will even think about quasi donating their time at higher levels in the sport. So I really appreciate, you know, having someone with your lived experience and also commitment to want to educate and improve the long term skills of these officials. It, it is so needed.
So you know, when we, when we're looking ahead at some of the challenges that are facing the profession, the three of us are aligned around, you know, where are the people that are going to come, can we retain them?
Right. We know that the best recruitment strategy is a retention strategy.
So what do you think some of the the big issues are, Guy?
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Well, when we look at long term athlete development, long term athlete development in my mind is really life cycle. It's a life cycle of an athlete when you start, when you finish, you know, starting out and then you know, sport for life along the way for a sport official. And a number of organizations have tried to do long term official development, long term referee development, long term umpire development, etc. And using the model which long term athlete is development is based upon.
But the fact is that between 70 and 80% of all the referees in Canada would be, I would consider Entry level referees, you know, a level one, level two. And they're very happy to be there. They're very happy to do community sport.
If they get a chance to do provincial sport, that is really amazing. But that is where they, you know, that's where we're really where they fit. And when we talk about long term athlete development, the long term athlete development is. It was really about how we take a development, how we take a number of athletes and get them to the national team and that performance counts and that the technical area. And Steve, you were talking about board members being involved and being involved in the operations. Most of them would come from a coaching or a player background. So for a provincial organization or even a national organization, success would depend. The measurement of success is how they do on the field of play.
So Dina, getting back was the referee perspective or the sport official perspective does not seem to be that.
They all recognize the importance. They all say yes, we need athlete, sport official development, but where, but there isn't any.
Where's the commitment to it? And you know, if we look at a number of the sportive, you know, organizations across the country, most will have a technical director and that leads to the athlete and coach development. Not very many have. Very few actually would have a referee development program.
Certainly at the Ontario Soccer association we did have a referee development program.
At the time I was there we were close to 11,000 referees but we were losing about 4, 500 every year. And that's the stat will go basically across all, all, all sport federations across excuse me, across the country.
And but we were recruiting that 45 every year.
So for us the retention was, was really key because if we can retain 4 or 5% of of those officials we would be able to, to grow our numbers.
So you know, to answer your question like where do we go from here and what, what can we do? It's you know, and again you spoke about the sport officials of Canada.
It's really for me it's about having that advocate who is going to say that sport officials are an, not only are an important because I think that's recognized. The, you know, the new sport policy recognizes it. You know, your own research that you guys have done through your journey throughout the country, you know, the new sport commission that that's looking. Everybody is recognizing that sport officials are important but there doesn't seem to be that commitment to providing that resources that would go with it that would continue to support referees, particularly at the community level. But then as we get to the more the high performance Level as well.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Guy, I want you to talk segue what you just spoke about, but segue it into your own journey.
You obviously started a fishing. We're on a podcast so nobody can see how, how we, how old we all look or how young we all look. But when you started your journey, why did you continue? Why did you have the motivation to get to a national, international level? Why didn't you quit when some parent or coach yelled at you when you were 18?
You know, why did you stay in it? And maybe you could share the why to motivate people to follow your path.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Oh, I think my path is I never planned to be where I am as far as. And where I am, I'll just pick. But we with, with my FIVB with, you know, I, I wanted to become a national referee.
And that required some, you know, a lot of work, you know, particularly around rule application, rule development.
But there was somebody who said, there was a gentleman from Nova Scotia, Brad Barton.
Brad saw something in me that he felt that I might have some skill set to go forth as a referee.
So I did my, my nationals and it was through Brad that I then I got invited to become to an international referee seminar.
I went on and I think for me it was just natural progression and I moved away from being a player, you know, and most recent research will show that the reason why people want to become referees or become referees are particularly too for the love of the game and to stay involved in the game. So for me, I think it was, was that.
And also I had the opportunity to work some of the highest matches and in the country. So now it's this competition within myself to always continue to improve and continue to be better. And when I went to a competition, my objective, and I've told this to many referees, was my objective was to do, do the gold medal. Now like teams, sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. And then I had to go back and look at why I didn't. You know, there's more practice, there's more, you know, more commitment to, to require to go ahead to do that.
But for me it was just this natural flow of competition and wanting to be there, but fortunately enough having the support and the skill to be able to continue on, to do it.
[00:27:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I appreciate that. And embedded in a lot of what you were saying, Guy, is the capacity to be self aware, then to be able to regulate the emotions and then to be able to pause and breathe and then render a decision based on best available information as well as, you know, an understanding of the rules. Right.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: One of the things he said, Dina, was that somebody tapped him on the shoulder, motivated him, tagged him along, recommended him.
And that's kind of what I think you're trying to do. Guy with refereecoaching.com it's, it's that mentorship. It's that safe play at that safe, safe place. It's, it's that learning experience.
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's, you know, and, and Dan, I've heard you, you talk about this once before was, you know, something about dedicated practice, you know, within referee coaching.com in the continuum itself. I talk about, you know, reflection and preparation. And while you've talked about dedicated practice, I call it conscientious practice with purpose.
You know, we've all heard about the 10,000 hours, and we've all heard the comment that practice makes perfect.
You're only. You can only get perfect if you're practicing the right thing.
And that's one of the things with refereecoaching.com I would focus on a lot, but it's about having that support. Steve, you spoke about this mentorship, one of the key functions within every organization. I think every sport organization has this, that they have their mentors. They have the people who support their referees.
You know, and I think refereeing mentors support referees. Coaches develop, coaches also support. But coaches challenge coaches push athletes or referees to improve their. Their ability to go forward. And then again, that's where I think sort of referee coaching.com or anybody who's in that coaching space. Dina, you talked about it, and I'm sure that you do this with your clients is that not only do you support them, you also challenge them. You also give them that. Here's the next goal that you should be thinking about. And you may not necessarily provide the pathway to do it, but you challenge them to find their own pathway to meet that level, but you're also there as that safety net to help them progress.
[00:30:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really beautiful place to stop, actually, because you've mentioned in many real ways, your platform, your. Your support and mentorship of these officials is really an innovation whose time has come and what I'm mindful of. You know, I didn't, I didn't. There was so much I didn't know about the nature of the work that you're offering Guy before this, this really beautiful conversation. And it's very similar to the work that we do to support leaders. Right.
And what we would offer is. I don't know if this will be your experience, but many of the Leaders we support, there's a loneliness, you know, when you're at the top of your game and you don't really want to go to the board yet because you're ruminating maybe over something and you don't. It's not appropriate to go to your staff yet because you're still formulating something. That's where a leadership coach comes in, where we can be a thinking partner, a strategic partner. We, we can also help them expand their thinking and help them excavate the knowledge they already have within them. And to your earlier point, you know, this deliberate, conscientious, intentional devotion to a practice, a lot of the skills that you need to apply the knowledge in real time as a referee, similar to leaders who have to make, you know, very difficult, challenging decisions. And, and so we often work with them to say, well, how are you going to know that the decision you're making meets your legal, ethical, moral requirements? And so being able to create that safe, as Steve said earlier, environment for people to thrive and enjoy themselves while they're here in this vocation, that's the end objective. And if we do a good job at that, Guy, we're, we're not just going to ret, you know, recruit people, we're going to retain them.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and thank you for mentioning that, because now you just reminded me of probably another reason why I started this. You know, many times when we're on the road with referees or sport officials from other countries, you might have a challenging match and then there's no one to talk to. You do not have anybody to reach out, someone who. That would understand the moment which you're feeling. And many times I spoke with, you know, various Canadian sports centers.
How come you don't have something for referees, you have something, or for sport officials, you have something for coaches, you have this support mechanism for athletes, and we do not have anything for referees. And I think one of the challenges, no matter what level of referees you work, you looking at, because when we look at the reason why referees are leaving is the, you know, is the abuse, it's the disrespect, it's the lack of support. It's a lack of organizational capacity to help me just get through the next match or the next year or whatever the case may be, you know, this is where I think, where a referee coaching or leadership development as, as sport law is doing that. I think, yeah, there is very similar characteristics and objectives of what we're, what we're both looking at here.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: All right, thank you, guy. We are running out of time.
I really, again want to thank you for doing today's podcast and sharing your history in sport and officiating in the establishment of referee coaching.com in the episode notes below, you'll find some sport law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. There will also be a link to referee coaching.com thank you to all our listeners. We are so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you and to elevate sport.
[00:33:51] Speaker C: As always, to have your say in Sportopia. Email us@helloportlaw CA to let us know what you want to hear about next. Stay tuned for the next episode and until then, be well.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: It.
