Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indig at Sport Law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: We're delighted to host lessons on leadership, inspiring conversations with some of Canadian sports most experienced and humanistic leaders. In this episode, we welcome Jasmine Northcott and Chief Executive Officer at Water Polo Canada. Jasmine has been working at all levels of the Canadian sports system for the past 20 years, including serving as Executive Director of the Shooting Federation of Canada, Water Ski and Wakeboard Canada and Athletes Can. Jasmine has also served as member of the executive for the summer NSO Sport Caucus for over six years now. Welcome, Jas.
[00:01:23] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Yeah, we're delighted to have you here. So, before we get started, Steve and Jazz, we have a tradition of checking in with each other and finding out what's coming across our desk this week. So, Steve, we're going to start with you. And you're not allowed to say, I'm going to say, look at my calendar.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: I am looking at my calendar. And I thought you were going to say, I'm not allowed to say bylaws, but I'm going to say bylaws. I. I'm going to change my middle name to Stephen Bylaw Indigenous. Be a test to anybody who listens to this podcast if you can repeat that at a later date.
And the other thing, Dina, I'm happy to hear is I'm having a lot of conversations about amalgamation, which is also something we've been talking about for months and a lot of presentations this week. So really nice to.
As I. As everyone's heard me speak about before, moving sport from A to B rather than from A to A. So excited to enhance governance, merge a couple organizations to share resources and to educate people on bylaws. So, Dino, what's new with you?
[00:02:32] Speaker B: I love that. I love that because I remember, I don't know which podcast we did a few years ago. We talked about all the A's. Right alignment and amalgamation and accountability, and it's just really helpful for us. And we're going to talk about humility as a secret ingredient to leadership. I'm sure that'll come up, Jaz. But this idea that, you know, we as a team put things out there into the universe of sport because we. We pay attention to the Tea leaves. We're out there sourcing knowledge. And because we have the privilege of connecting with so many leaders, we start to see trends, right? And when it's happening to you, you think it's just happening to you. And you, you don't have time to like, put your head up and start to ask yourself why. You just assume it's only you. And that's part of why we're offering this lessons on leadership. Because so many leaders feel isolated. Right?
So for me, what's coming across my desk this week, I love teaching. It's one of the things that really lights me up. And Jaz, you know that about me. So I'm delighted because I, I'm teaching a group of people how to become certified in the NOVA profile. It's one of my happiest places. Places. This little instrument that allows us to understand ourselves a little bit more, that allows us to find language to source our motivations.
It invites us to think differently about our communication style and the impact we want to have on others. The NOVA for me has been such a game changer in my coaching practice. And when I'm called in to do restorative work around conflict, I bring in the nova. I'm also doing a lot more work now, Steve and Jaz, in building and strengthening holistic cultures.
So it's such a delight and privilege for me to be with the new crop of NOVA practitioners. So that's really what I'm focusing on this week. Jaz, what about you? What's coming across your desk?
[00:04:30] Speaker C: I would say this week's focus is on good corporate housekeeping. I would say I myself am doing my one year kind of annual review, which is, you know, I think a great opportunity to kind of take a step back and really reflect on kind of where, you know, I am today versus when I walked into the organization a year ago.
So there's that we are doing some policy review right now. And so, you know, we are going to be spending some time over the course of the week looking at how we, you know, update and keep current our policies and then playing with our OPS and Strat plan and we're working with a new platform to take those plans and ensure that they are alive and constantly kind of sourcing how we're working within our day to day realms. And so, yeah, so playing with that throughout the week. So yeah, sounds like fun, Steve.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: There's always, there's always something to be did to, to do, Jaz. I mean, before we get into the, the meat and potatoes of leadership and Your style of leadership and your experience in sport. I, I wonder if you could tell our listeners, you know, how did you get here? Why sport?
Why didn't you run away a long time ago? Why are you still here? Why'd you get into it? What's happened throughout your career anyway? You get where I'm coming from?
[00:06:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: We want to know more about jazz.
[00:06:12] Speaker C: Well, you know, I've grown up in sport. I came to sport after completing my master's degree in sports marketing and management.
And you know, I, I came into sport through the multi sport. Org side of the, the ecosystem through Athletes Can. And so, you know, Athletes can was, you know, in a, in a state of growth and development when I happened to come into the system. And so, you know, I came out of doing my master studies, walked right into athlete's can at a time when we were working to embed, well, develop, grow and embed athlete leadership within the system.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:02] Speaker C: And really like all the hard work that had been done by, you know, core group of athlete leaders at that point had been around a kitchen table. And so I happened to come into the system at the same time that they were taking that kitchen table and moving it into a formal, you know, organizational environment. And they said, go right, figure it out.
And so it was fun because, you know, there was no roadmap, like we had to figure it out from scratch. And at the same time, as someone, you know, young and new coming into the system, it allowed me to access to all of these tables that I don't think I normally would have had access to.
And at the same time we were working with all of the national sport organizations, all the multi sport organizations, the government of Canada.
So it, it also gave me this like amazing, like viewpoint of the system. And then on top of that, you're working on behalf of every single athlete in Canada. So how motivating is that? Right?
So that's really where I cut my teeth in sport and kind of built those muscles to try and, you know, kind of grow and evolve in sport. And you know, that was before marriage, before kids, before mortgages, before all of that. Right?
Yeah. So that's where, where I started off. And then, you know, fast forward 10 years with athletes can. I started to get curious because it was funny, you could, you could feel attention growing in the sports system.
And, and because we worked with NSOs and in trying to help, you know, build a system of athlete centered leadership, you could feel that NSOs were getting constricted. There was a tightening within the system.
And I Was really curious about that. So then around 2013, I shifted to the NSO side of the system, and that's where I've lived since and in a couple of different, you know, sports and, you know, now today with. With water polo Canada. And so. So, yeah, it's been fun. It's been fun to kind of be able to kind of live and breathe within both sides of the system. And. And I think that gives me a different perspective maybe, because I know what's possible and where the limitations are on. On both sides a little bit. Anyways, yeah, I.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: It's so great to. To hear Steve and Jazz, the story, the backstory, because, of course, I. I mean, I've been working in sports since 91, so I remember when I first met you, and you were, you know, fresh out of school and big hopes and big dreams on behalf of a group of people that I'd come to really revere and appreciate, so. People like Ann Peel and Lori Johnstone and so many others. So I remember those days fondly, Jaz. And one of the things that I think I most appreciate about you, your creativity. So it's not surprising to me that your masters was. Was in the marketing realm because you bring such creativity and to complex problems. And I think that that ability to look at the full prism of something and not, you know, descend into despair, which can be easy, is one of the hallmarks of your leadership style. I also like. Right. Related to that is you tend to be very hopeful.
Right. You have this what's possible approach that you generously. That would be the third kind of thing that I've experienced from you. Your generosity towards others and towards situations, which I think, I think brings a sense of stability when. When the, you know, the. The winds are swirling. So we'd love to know a little bit more, you know, about what you feel is most rewarding about being a leader.
[00:11:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say, you know, for me, it's really to be able to work on behalf of the community that I'm serving, to grow and build not only people, but the organization. And so, you know, it. It requires me to, you know, really kind of connect with and understand the community in order to work on their behalf and with the community, to then help us move not only ourselves as people evolving and growing and contributing to this bigger picture organization, but the organization forward in lockstep, because I don't think you have one without the other. It has to be people first. And ideally, you're creating that fantastic culture that will then transition into a fantastic organization and that allows me to be creative and, you know, kind of get my hands dirty and play with a lot of people and.
And, you know, I think what I know scares a lot of people at first is ask what's possible. Like, what if we did this? What if we considered that?
And then play in that space and kind of build from there.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: I wonder, Jaz, if you could dive a little bit deeper into your leadership style and maybe how it's evolved since you started.
Since you started in sport, and then maybe share a particular example where that leadership style aligned with your values and defined who you want to be as a leader.
[00:12:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I think when I was younger, I felt like I had to prove something, right?
And that part of that proving was also kind of generating. You had to show you were grinding away and pulling long hours and proving that you deserve to be there.
And I would say where I learned what really mattered to me was from a sense of depletion. Right.
You know, I got to a point where I was just like, there's gotta be more than this.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Right?
[00:13:29] Speaker C: Like, I don't feel like. Like this is sustainable over the long term. And certainly, you know, my life kind of had evolved in lockstep with that.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:40] Speaker C: Like, I was a young mom and all that, and really, it was my work. You know, Dina, if you recall, like, way back when, when, when you were starting your integral coach training and. And you had opened the door to take on some volunteer clients, and, you know, I kind of put my hand up there and said, well, maybe she'll take me.
And thank God she did, because it provided an opportunity for me to deconstruct and kind of open my mind to kind of the.
The hurdles or the anchors that I felt were. Were holding me back in my old way of doing this old way of thinking. I needed to prove, you know, I.
And in doing so, I was able to, you know, kind of discover that if I'm going to be the leader I know I can be and that I want to be, it's got to be in alignment with my own personal values.
And on top of that, I need to be good to me in order for me to show up as the best leader I can be to everybody else. And as a young person, I hadn't done that well because I just didn't know.
And so Dina introduced me to a way of thinking and a way of seeing that. Fast forward 10 years, I feel like I'm operating from a different playbook.
And so now I don't get stressed out about the things that would have stressed me out as a leader 10 years ago because I'm able to, I think, come at it from a place of stillness where before I think it was a place of chaos.
And when I'm in those spaces where I can feel things are not in alignment for me, I have language to go, okay, like, what feels off?
You know, have I not, you know, kind of tended to self? Or is there a values issue that I'm brushing up against?
And since then, I've used that inspiration that I learned originally with Dina to kind of build more tools to support me, because I really think that if I can't come to the table as my full self, then I can't serve the people that I represent in the organization that I work for in a really meaningful and honest way.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: There's the mic drop, right? It's the. It's the uncovering, isn't it, that. That is so grueling. The grind of taking time, devoted time and practice to kind of understand who am I.
And, you know, I love saying what doesn't bend, breaks. So what is our capacity to kind of, like, be an experience? You use the word chaotic.
These experiences that cause us pain, that causes fracture, that causes tension. If we don't learn how to flex and flow and understand, like, what is my. Of starting, what is my operating framework? What are my values? You know, what is my perspective on this?
If we are allowing life to happen to us, then when we step into, you know, leadership roles, we go back to.
To what is rewarded, what is the common way of being. And in a sport, in a sector like sport, you know, at least for sure for the. For the first 20 years since I was working in sport, the grind, the. You've got to work harder and faster than others. You have to prove and compete.
It's exhausting. So I love hearing, Jaz, that, you know, you were noticing very young in your career, this didn't align with you, and I suspect those attributes that I've come to know and appreciate about you, that creativity, that positivity, that generosity, gave you that really beautiful place to land and kind of meet the chaos from a different place. And of course it's going to cause the fracture because the reward system is rewarding something that didn't align with who you were.
So I remember that time fondly. It was. You were a wonderful client to work with as I was cutting my teeth in the. In the leadership coaching place.
So we'd love to explore, Steve and I, you know, what is. What has been a challenging situation. Maybe you know, you can take us to something that was really difficult, difficult for you, and you had to dig maybe deeper, expand your capacity and maybe share a story of how you came through that with your values intact.
[00:18:23] Speaker C: I would say one of the stories and the lessons learned and the journey has been navigating the personalities of sport, right? So in sport you have a lot of different groups you're working with. And, and in my past there's been sports that I've worked with that have siloed, individual sports within a sport even. And so the, the dynamics of, you know, the different groups that you're working with all the time, you know, you get one silo figured out and then you realize there's something entirely different happening in different silo and, and trying to navigate that and really understand where people coming from. And then for those who are volunteering and have been immersed in their sport for so long, it really is their personality, it is the shield in which they hold in front of themselves and project out into the world. And so it's not just, you know, A and B, C follows. This is logically where we need to go. There's so much happening underneath there, right?
Oftentimes coming up as kids and now adults into the sport.
And so I would say there's been different times where what seems to be some logical and obvious answer to a problem becomes absolutely unattainable because of all of these different perspectives.
And so I would say that was hard going over many, many years and continues to be, but I think for me it was like, okay, how do I find a path through all this? And again through my learnings, through working with you, Dina over the years was being exposed to not only integral coaching, but the Nova profile to give me those keys to try and unlock how people are coming to the table.
And that's been the hardest part.
And then remembering at the end of the day, and this was just something I read in a book a long time ago, is try to picture that person as their three year old self, right? Because at the end of the day, all of these people in sport are trying to give back to something they absolutely love. And sometimes it doesn't work in the broader context of what you're trying to do as an organization.
And it's really easy to bring a hero, villain perspective to the table. And you see that happen all the time. That never works ever.
So I think it's been while in the muck, while trying to figure out what the heck is going on half the time in the context of what seem to be warring parties all kind of fighting against one another, really trying to unlock what the heck is happening and over time acquiring tools to help find different keys to decode what different groups are trying to say. And at the end of the day, really trying to keep in mind that three year old self that is in them so that you can see them as a person just trying their best as a person as opposed to someone who's on the surface maybe being seen as obstinate or, or kind of a barrier.
So I would say that's kind of been a key lesson learned over time, but it's not been an easy lesson or a fast lesson, very slow lesson. And I would say on the flip side of that, where you're dealing with so many people around so many issues is on the other side of it, leadership is really lonely.
There's a lot of loneliness around being the CEO or an executive director of an organization because there's a lot you can't talk about, you can't share with your staff.
Your board may not have the perspective that you hold in order to have those conversations. And so I've learned also over time to develop my network and those relationships so that you can kind of throw a call out to somebody and say, can you just hear me out and tell me if I'm insane or not?
Or just walk, like, talk me off this ledge for a second.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: That's what Steve and I are usually for each other. It's like you're not going to believe what just came across my desk. And then we kind of bounce ideas off each other. So we have a thinking partner. And that's what you're speaking to Jaz, like, who is the thinking partner for these incredible leaders? You know, you talk about loneliness and that would be something that I would say.
Leaders have to be really comfortable with this loneliness that sets in as part of the leadership muscles. But it doesn't have to be isolating. And that actually is why we started launching this particular series, because we wanted to afford, especially the next gen, a sense of this is, it's not all bad, right? And maybe I can learn from people like Jaz and Casey and Lorraine, like the people we've had on the podcast. So I, I am, I am grateful that you're sharing. It's not all doom and gloom, but it's also not all, you know, roses and, and easy experiences. Steve, I see you smiling.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: Well, I'm laughing because, you know, again, we, we pare it down to policies and the evolution of sport and I've said this before. Twenty years ago, it was five policies, and today it's 30 policies. And.
And, you know, jazz organizations hire you to be their CEO to create water polo options and tournaments and initiatives, but that's like 10% of your job. And as you were speaking, it reminded me that maybe you'd make a good mediator at the end of your career, because it's really about understanding people. And the issue, a lot of times isn't the issue. Like, I'm concerned that you didn't pick my son or my son for the national team. But then I didn't like the way you responded to my email. So now I'm mad about that. But that's not the issue. The issue is selection, and it's about swimming. No pun intended. It's swimming through all of that to find out the issue.
And it's really complicated. And I had a call this morning from a client where a parent was upset and started threatening litigation. And I'm going to sue you, and I'm going to come after you personally.
And the likelihood of that happening is probably 0.0001%.
But if they come to the. Had they come to the board and said, I have a concern about this, and this is what I'd like to see the outcome be in a reasonable conversation, it probably would have resolved itself. And not having spent thousands of dollars on legal fees like re. Where did reasonableness go? But anyway, I just love the fact that you're speaking and reinforcing about the. The complexity of being a sport leader is not just about. And I know I'm being trivial here about organizing a water polo tournament. Like, it's so much more. So I just. That just resonates with me.
[00:26:03] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, it's about talking to people. Right. Like, I think in a weird way, we've lost the art of talking in and having conversations and just, you know, kind of connecting with people on a real level and just being open to what people have to say, good, bad, and otherwise.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:28] Speaker C: And not taking it so personally, but just being open and listening. And I think people miss not being listened to.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that could be. Our last question was really about a piece of wisdom that you wanted to impart on younger people, because I think a fundamental part of any form of leadership is to be able to turn backwards and say, what are some of the lessons I've learned? And who was my safety net?
For me, it was people like Paul Milia and Victor Lachance and Karen o'.
[00:27:02] Speaker C: Neill.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Right. These were people who believed in me and gave me a chance. People like, I'm thinking of Frank Radcliffe and Bill Hirsch, you know, at the beginning, when I was 23, starting in sport with big hair and bigger, bigger dreams, and they saw something in me. So I think looking back is fundamental, but so too is looking forward to the next generation. It's an indigenous wisdom and principle to look seven generations into the future to guide the way we make decisions today. So when you were speaking, Jaz, about, you know, making thoughtful decisions and giving space to conversation so we can navigate the unknown, it takes incredible amount of courage and compassion to be able to stand in that space when everyone else is rewarding you for speed and outcome. So anything else you want to say? You said so much about wisdom here in this conversation. Is there something in particular you want to offer, especially the newer generation that are, that are coming into this ecosystem we call sport?
[00:28:07] Speaker C: I would say be brave and ask questions, right? Like I can appreciate that it's probably an intimidating space to come into. I remember being that young person and sitting at those tables and just feeling like I had to hold on for dear life because the people around me were so smart and the conversations were so elevated and I was just like, there is good stuff happening here. I just got to hold on tight. But I also had to be brave to know when to ask questions or offer a perspective. And that's really scary.
And I really encourage folks to do that. New folks coming into the sport because you see things differently than I do, having been for like 20 plus years. Please tell me what I can't see right now because there's a lot I know I can't see. I just don't know what it is.
So, yeah, I would say be brave and ask questions and don't be afraid to get your hands dirty.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: Well, thanks for that, Jaz.
I've said this before on the podcast. I remember coming out of law school, wanted to be involved in sport, unsure how to get in, and some great advice was do it yourself or really try to make your own breaks. So asking those questions, being bold and just doing it is really important. This is the fun part of the podcast where we do a couple rapid fire questions. So don't think too hardly of Dean and I will ping pong off of you. But first I'll start with a really hopefully easy one. What's your favorite travel spot?
[00:29:49] Speaker C: Oh, anywhere sunny, hot in the beach, and blue clear waters that are bathtub temperature.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: What's your favorite motivational saying?
[00:30:00] Speaker C: Oh, well, this is one I learned from you And I actually have it framed behind my monitor here because I need to remind myself. But oxygen masks first.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: Oxygen mask first. I love that.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Favorite movie?
[00:30:16] Speaker C: Oh, this one's kind of embarrassing, but it's true. National Lampoon's Christmas Vacations. Yes.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: I love that.
Chevy Chase. Okay, and the last one is, what is your favorite pump up song?
[00:30:30] Speaker C: I don't have really one favorite pump up song, but I think any kind of dance hit from like the 90s would probably hit.
So.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: Madonna, anyone? Yeah, there's a holiday song in there, right?
[00:30:43] Speaker C: Steve?
[00:30:43] Speaker A: I'd be lying Jazz if I that wasn't happened to be on my playlist for workout sessions at the gym.
[00:30:53] Speaker C: Amazing.
[00:30:55] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much, Jaz. We we love learning from people like you. It's just such a privilege to be in service, you know, alongside you in in a sector we really care about. So we're going to share more about you and people can find out a little bit more about you through the episode notes and and also encourage our leaders. We've got a lot of special Sport Law blogs where hopefully you can find information and wisdom related to the conversation that we had today.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: Thank you so much to our listeners. We are so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you and to elevate sport. As always to have your say in Sportopia. Email us at helloportlaw ca to let us know what you want to hear about next. Thanks, Jaz. Thanks Dina. Have a wonderful week and we look forward to connecting again soon.
[00:31:47] Speaker C: Thanks so much.
