Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indig at Sport Law.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport today. We're so pleased to have Julie Chu, Carolyn Wallet and Loren Brett join us. Julie is a former captain of the U.S. women's hockey team and is tied as the second most decorated U.S. female in Olympic Winter Games history. Maybe we should say herstory. And is the current head coach of women's hockey at Concordia University. Welcome, Julie.
[00:01:10] Speaker C: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: And Carot was a member of the Canadian National Women's Hockey team, is an IHF hall of Fame inductee, and is the associate head coach at Concordia. Bienvenue, Charles Carhalien.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Merci.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Loren is one of Sport Law certified leadership coaches and we're just thrilled that she's joining me today in lieu of Steve to talk a little bit about this program that she's been leading with Julie and Caroline. Welcome, Loren from Bali. That's so exciting.
[00:01:47] Speaker D: Thank you. So happy to be here.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: So we are going to speak today about the impact of what we call Sport Law's flagship leadership development program in it's the NOVA Profile Integration program and specifically how it's contributed to the Stingers team performance. So we're just delighted to be doing this. And before we get to that, it's our practice to ask each other what's coming across your desk today. So Loren, what is coming across your desk this week?
[00:02:19] Speaker D: Well, not too much because as you mentioned, I'm in Bali and I've just come off a week long retreat that my daughter was leading up in a place called Sumburkima. And so I've had, you know, a full week, 10 days of healing and relaxation. And it reminds me, Dina, of what you always talk about, that self care is an ethical imperative. And I've really, I think about that a lot because I think we don't take the time. And even when I take a holiday, I'm usually still plugged in somehow. And this is a longer holiday for me. So that's really what's coming across my desk. But before I left, I am really immersed and getting more requests to do debriefs with teams that I've been working with specifically related to the Olympics. And so after I've taken them through what we're going to be talking about today, they've come back from Olympics and said, hey, can you debrief with our team and do a deep dive on what the experience was like, what really worked for them, where they had challenges and just really gather themes about where they can take their team in the future.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: I love that, Loren. It's interesting because I, I've been asked to, to do debriefs as well. Typically when something goes sideways, so when, you know what hits the fan, I get called in and people are hurt. They're frustrated, they're scared, they're disappointed, some are grieving. So in my most recent debrief, I had people actually intentionally walk in and do a healing practice because I'm training also to use rituals as a celebrant. You know, I do some work with end of life care. So I'm using some of these rituals and how we can help teams recover from. For some, it's a traumatic experience, right, when. When they, they thought that they were going to go to the games and it didn't work the way they had planned. There is trauma, and that trauma lives in our bodies. We don't really talk about a lot of that.
So I think it's really important that we have these healthy conversations to understand what happened, what would we do differently, and importantly, what do we still want to carry with us moving forward. We're not going to throw everything away. Right. So I find these are restorative rituals that really help people make sense. And when we normalize that and integrate that into our way of being as leaders, then people aren't, you know, embarrassed or scared in these experiences. They're, they recognize it's an important part of being leaders. We want to learn and understand how we can improve. So I love, Loren, that both of us are doing that kind of work, which is really exciting.
[00:05:18] Speaker D: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, there's something also magical about having this type of conversation that you and I have Gina, with them, because I found, because we come from a coaching approach, it's also helping them integrate and process their experience, whether it was full of joy or there was some heartbreak or whatever it is. And, you know, I'm doing it with the coaches, the ist, the staff, you know, from the nso, as well as the athletes. And it's really, really profound work because it's really helping them have a deeper understanding about their experience.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: So it's very exciting to see the shift in the sports system. I have to say.
[00:06:03] Speaker D: It's so much better than just sending a survey out, right?
[00:06:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Amazing.
[00:06:10] Speaker C: More personally. Oh, that was to say, like more personal. And even as someone that wasn't a part of a debrief to get a sense of what. How powerful that could be and helping rethink after. We're probably not in the heat of everything too. A little time has passed potentially and just getting to reflect back and that process of reflection is sometimes often missed. It's like the go, go, go, go, go. Think a little bit, but let move on without thinking and maybe having some concrete things to put into the future as well.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly, Julie. And you know, we can make it really small, like for you as coaches, you and Carol, you can adopt this practice of start, stop, continue, which I'm sure you're already doing a version of that as you. As you cap off a season together and when it's been the best season ever, there's also loss in that experience too, because people are like, oh, it'll never, ever possibly be this good again. Right. Until it is.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Yes, I think last year.
[00:07:14] Speaker D: Which we'll talk about.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:17] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: So for me, quickly, what's coming across, I'm really excited because I'm. I've been asked to support a group of executive directors and, and what we're doing right now is just setting the table.
I don't know what they want to talk about. So we, we connected with one of our clients and so they're pulling all executive directors. This is at a provincial sport organization level and I'm facilitating a conversation with the EDS to say, what do you want to learn about? We're normalizing that leaders need support too. It's helpful to have leadership coaches guide them and challenge them and open up their possibilities through really powerful questions. And so I'm going to be dancing in that space and I'm really excited about just what they're going to talk about because then I'm passing the baton over to Loren, who's going to be actually doing the leadership work with them. So that's what's what I'm. What I'm really excited about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:24] Speaker D: It's very, very exciting. This next phase that we're going to be working with this, this client of ours.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: So there you go. So Caru and Julie, really, really excited to have you here.
Maybe I' you, Loren, maybe talk a little bit about the work that we're doing so that people who aren't familiar with the Nova, you know, maybe get a better sense of what is anova? How do we integrate this tool into leadership development, coaching development, athlete development, and maybe describe this project, this process you've been accompanying Julie and her team in over the last several years.
[00:09:09] Speaker D: Yeah. So, you know, I always start by thinking about this as it's a way to just pause.
And that's something that most teams, whether it being a sport team or a leadership team of some sort that we don't do, we just keep on doing the work. But it's a chance to pause from that daily grind and just reorient, you know, ourselves to ourself, to the work we do to our life. And that can really lead to a sense of renewal and attachment to the purpose, you know, why, you know, you're doing what you're doing and what, what makes it so inspiring for you? So I think basically the, the focus or the mission of the program is to really shed some light on some of the really important and essential qualities that enable anyone. And I say, you know, everybody's a leader. It doesn't matter whether you're an athlete or a coach or a support staff or an administrator, everybody's a leader. And so it really helps people excel in their role, whatever that is. And so it helps the Nova profile, which I'll get into in a second, but it really helps us gain some self awareness and helps us be resilient because we, we get these resources, these inner resources that help us sustain in moments where we may be challenged or even, you know, when there's lots of joy and whatnot. And so it helps us to manage stress, it helps us to navigate change, it helps us to understand what our impact is and really start to create healthy alliances with our, first of all, with ourself, but also with others, and how we can work really well together. So these are some of the, I think, some of the really core, crucial professional capabilities that we're looking for. So we start with administering the Nova profile to a team. So that team could be, as I said before, it could be an administrative team, or in this case, it's a sport team, a women's hockey team, and everybody gets their.
It's a psychometric assessment tool that helps you understand what your behavioral preferences are, how you show up in the world, what are your strengths, what are some of your limitations.
It helps you understand what are the things that actually motivate you to do what you do and say what you say. And it also helps you understand who you are as a leader and what is the way that you show up as a Leader. And one of the golden parts I find about the Nova profile is your communication style. And that is a big part of what we really hone in on. It's not about putting people in a box and saying, you are this thing forever and shall be, but it's really helping you understand what is your way, right? And then opening that doorway to other people and what is their way and, you know, helping us be guided by the platinum rule, which is treat others the way they want to be treated. And it doesn't mean you lay down and don't, you know, allow yourself to be who you are. It's not that at all, but it's actually opening up a portal to somebody else and really trying to understand who they are. So we start with an individual one on one debrief.
Sometimes we do small groups, like in the case of Concordia, you know, all of the player leaders, they're their captains, player leaders and their coaches got a one on one coaching conversation with me for 90 minutes to really understand what their Nova profile means. Because it's not enough to just read it.
Having a coach, you know, walk you through it is really powerful. And then with the player leaders, what we did was we. Sorry, the rest of the team, we did small group debriefs with them. And that was first time we'd actually done that before. And that was actually really, really an interesting process and really, I think, powerful. I'd love to hear from Julian Caro how they felt that that went. And then I brought them together for a full day and we did what we call the Nova integration, where we walk them through some very experiential exercises to really allow this. This tool to come to life and how. And have them understand how it plays out when they're on the rink, we're on the field of play, whatever that is, how they show up as leaders and everybody. And it was extraordinary. So that's pretty much. I know. Dina, is there anything else that you would add to that?
[00:13:48] Speaker A: No, no, I. I just. I'm. I'm noticing how proud I am. I think that's that emotion of like, wow, someone else is geeking out on this Nova stuff, you know, more than I am. Which is. So we are too, like, the four of us are like listening to you, you know, Loren, and going, wow, this is. It's really.
It's really. For me, it's uplifting to see how something. I'm going to take us back. You know, six years ago, when Mel Davidson, who was running the women's hockey program at Hockey Canada approached me because we had had a breakfast, you know, I don't know, take seven years ago. And I was talking to her about the psychometric tool, the nova. And, and I said to Mel, I think this tool more than any others because I had other leadership psychometrics in my tool belt. But I said, there's something about the NOVA that I think could be transformative for coaches and leaders and athletes. Imagine if a coach understood what an athlete's communication preference was. Imagine what that will do to their psychological safety and also inspire the coach to maybe have those difficult, challenging conversations earlier. Because remember, it's not what people often say to you, it's how they say it. So that led me to connect with Carot and seven of her colleagues in a year long leadership development program for female coaches. And some of them had been coaches for a while, so they were more seasoned veterans and others were kind of new. They had just retired from the national team and were looking to cut their teeth into the coaching realm. And so Caru and I were able to dance together alongside her seven other colleagues. And in that experience, I have to say, it was, it was transformative for me to be alongside the eight of you, Carot, learning about what it's like for you as a female coach, what's different for you? How can the nova, you understanding yourself, your leadership strengths and edges and your communication preferences, having conversations around your, you know, your values, what's important to you was really inspiring. And then bringing you together in peer to peer conversations with your other coaches, right? That was extraordinary. And then we capped it off with a closing conversations around what more we could do. So it was just so inspiring for me, Carol, when you called, you know, a few years later and said, hey, the love of my life is really interested in doing this too on behalf of her team. So, you know, Carol, I'd love to know, what impact did this learning experience have on you, personally and professionally?
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I remember thinking as we were doing the program how much I wished I had experienced that as a player, as a leader, as someone who played 16 years on the national team. And only a few years after the start of my career, I was catapulted in the leadership group. And I got to learn a ton from leaders like Cassie Campbell, like Terence Brisson, like Vicky Sonara. But I never really was taught by someone else than a teammate on how we should lead and how we should reflect on how we lead and who we are as a leader. And I think that was the first part for me. Like talking back with Julie, I was like, this would be incredible for a leadership group.
And when we met, Dina was just starting in coaching. So it was so powerful to me to understand who I was and how I led. And I realized that I was a really specific type of leader that was really focused on performance, on high achievement, on I don't care if you get along, just get the job done.
Unfortunately, with the national team, for many years I was surrounded with similar type of leaders.
So I don't ever think that we reached the full potential of leadership we could have had. Because I needed to get so much better with my relationships, with building trust with my athletes, with other coaches. You know, I always had the philosophy, I'm going to be a forever student of the game. But for me, what that meant was I'm going to be better at teaching skills, at teaching hockey concept, at exploring what's the new skills in the game, how can we become better as a team. But it's not what it is about. I realize along the way and from that program that we do human relations, we really do like the, the X and O's and the, the skill technique is such a small part of what we do. We, we deal with humans that go through eyes and lows in such a important part of their lives. As they enter college, they're still so young, they experience a lot of difficult things at home in their lives. There's a ton of changes in that period in their lives. And I needed to learn on how to better help them lead, deal with that. And for that, I needed to connect more with people to take the time to understand who they were and how they needed to be talked to. And for me, you know, it's funny because Julie and I are. We didn't know that at the time, but after doing Nova, we realized we're complete opposite in our leadership style. And sometimes that makes her really annoying to me, but then sometimes I know that there's so much from our leadership style that I can get better at, and I'm still working on that. So going back to that experience that we had together, I thought it was so powerful because, you know, we were all newly retired as players. And for me, it was tough to really have closing on my playing career. And at the time, I wasn't sure if I was going to love coaching as much as I loved playing. And I think I eventually really got there and now I enjoy it just as much because I get to experience the same emotions, the same feelings that I did as a player. But through them. And it's even more rewarding when I see them achieve something new, become leaders, gain confidence, be able to address the team. Yesterday, our captain delivered a speech at a Hall of Fame induction of Julie Ely, which was an incredible member of Team Canada for years. And I was watching her deliver that speech, and I just felt so much pride. There's an interview of hers going around online, and she talks about trusting the process and. And learning to lead. And this year, she's our captain, and it makes me so incredibly proud, and I can't wait to see her go in the world. And the next things that she's going to achieve are going to be so incredible. So we get to foster that. That leadership that they have. They come in, they're shy, they can address a group, and they become strong and confident and able to work with others. And that makes me incredibly proud.
But at the time, you know, I feel like you made us comfortable to be uncomfortable with each other and to open up on what are my challenges and how can I have more courageous conversation. I wasn't there. Like, I could barely have those with teammates as a leader, as a captain or assistant captain with the national team. But then when you become a coach, that's part of your daily job, is to have courageous conversations, to not let something go. That's. That's a behavior that doesn't align with the values that you want to instill on your team. And. And it's still a work in progress. Like, every day we.
We take a big breath and we're like, okay, we need to meet with that player. We need to address that. It's not easy. It's never going to be easy, but it's. It's more comfortable because working with you on that program, I learned to know who I was and how I resonated as a leader and how I needed to be dealt with, but also how I needed to learn on how to talk to different people. And knowing now our players are. And how they want to be talked to and all their communication styles are really helps us being able to better coach them and better guide them and being better mentor to them for what they need. So, you know, years after, still with the coaches that were part of that program, we discussed. We talked about it and how powerful that was in our. In our young coaching career. And I'm forever grateful for Mel to have met you, and I'm super happy that we were able to start this program also with Concordia. And I think it's been a huge part of our success over the Last three years or now, we won two national championship silver medal in the middle. So we've been through a lot. Our players have been through a lot. But I think we've become much better and much stronger from working with, with you at Sports Law.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: Wow, I'm, I'm really touched listening to someone and watching your face light up. Because, Carol, you and Julie are not just partners on the ice. Your partner is in life and your parents. And it got me thinking because we're all women here, what it's like to be so passionate. You know, there's something about sport that is mysterious in a way. Right. Like we're in the experience in a particular kind of way, so devoted and the, it's the power of possibility, I think, that attracts a certain kind of person to then be in a partnership with someone who, who's touched into that. Right. The two of you as, as retired Olympians and now partners in evolving this passion of sport and the sport of ice hockey to all these young women and then also as parents of two young, you know, daughters, it just, it, it sama 10 months. Touche, Caroline. Tavoir tant.
And to see how generous it is of, of us as a system to be able to gift. The gift of the Nova. That's what you made me feel just now is what a gift it was for Mel, who had this vision of something better and how this can disrupt all of the unsafe practices that get in the way when we're in a pressure cooker like a high performance sport experience. So just so much gratitude for the gift of you this morning to help me see the impact, the rippling out that this has had. So thank you so much. So I'm going to turn it over to Loren, who I know is going to ask something similar of you, Julie, and thank you for so patiently waiting while you are absorbing all of this. It must have been really beautiful for you to experience your partner in life and in work to receive some of that too.
[00:25:54] Speaker C: Absolutely. A huge driver of why we're having this conversation and why sports law is a part of what we believe in and what we wanted to try to integrate within the resources. But then the learning, the experience of our, of our team. So it's, it's been really great. So everything she said, I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. On like the Hockey Canada side also, we've seen it on our leadership and, and coaching side. But then also this year amongst our entire team and our players.
[00:26:23] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Well, we've been on quite a journey for the last Three years. So, Julie, I'm interested for you. How is learning about your behavioral preferences and your motivations through the NOVA profile? How has it influenced your personal leadership style as a coach?
[00:26:40] Speaker C: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the NOVA is something that's been really powerful in a lot of ways. And I remember when we had our opening conversation, Dina, about, okay, what is it? And should we bring it to our program at Concordia? And although as we get older, we may have more space for different ways of learning, reading more books, podcasts, or different things that we want to do. Integrating leadership training. Sometimes when they're student athletes and they've got so many things on their plate and they have so many books, they're already reading, to read another book, say, in the school year, they're like, I think I'm okay. So we were kind of like, what would our team feel about this? What would our leadership group feel about it? And so we're like, well, let's give it a shot, and let's see. And it went really, really well. And that's why we've done it for three years. But to the point in our first conversation, Dina said, well, you'll suddenly realize, and Loren as well, you'll start talking in colors. I was like, in the back of my head, I was like, what are you talking about, colors? Like, what's going on here? But it's totally true with the NOVA profile and the four different color quadrants of our styles and what resonates to us, we often do refer to that, and I think the colors make it really easy to think about, okay, this is what's being highlighted right now. These are kind of my strengths. These are my limitations. And then how, in this situation, can I pull more of this out of me to get more out of those around me or whatever the situation might require at that moment. So I think in regards to my. My leadership style, it's still very similar to before that. You know, I'm a high yellow, high green, so I'm. I'm interactive. I like to talk, my hands go flying, and I like that high energy experience, but also really love the green in me, the collaboration, making sure I'm checking in, asking for other people's opinions and different things. And that part probably drives my high red over here bonkers and a little bit annoyed at times. So I do realize those situations when I'm working with others, then understanding, you know, what are their, you know, high colors and what are the way, as you said, the platinum rule, what do they need to. How do they need to be treated and what do they need to be able to receive the information that I'm giving. So if I'm working with those that are higher ed in that community in that moment, then I have to speed up my process a little bit or I have to communicate. I just need probably five minutes to think before we can have our conversation. Otherwise my five minutes of processing, you're gonna have to take a deep breath during. So that's really helped me. And I think in general, especially after Covid, we have to really spend more time in this and it's been for a long time. But after Covid, there was a lot of heaviness that was brought a lot of trauma from the experience and a lot of kind of lack impatience and lack of communication because we were in our little bubbles. We didn't have the human touch. So coming out of that, that was a really key and core part of it. And I saw there gap and there was a lack of it. And so how did we help to bring a resource like yourselves in to help us grow? And then from there, how do we then apply it to our leadership students?
And then from there, okay, yeah, actually this is something our entire team needs. So it's a little progression. But for myself, it helps me be more aware of who I'm communicating with and to try my best to help them or kind of communicate in a way that they're going to receive the message. And that's hard because sometimes that means I have to be a little more red and direct. But I know the impact and the importance of that within that communication. Wow.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: You know, I'm going to ask you, Julie, about a story that you might have in a moment. But in this moment, just as I'm observing the two of you, I have many different collaborations and partnerships that really like are that I deeply, deeply, deeply value. And I find the way that I've talked about the nova is regardless of our colors, right. Whether we're more task focused, introverted, extroverted, or relational, what's the doorway that we are going to access so that we can collaborate, you know, in a way that's not going to reduce frustration and increase the likelihood we're going to achieve really good work together because that's the goal of us coming together. So I'm curious with the two of you.
You know, the behaviors are one thing, right? But what about the motivations? And I'm wondering in this moment, you know, as I'm, as I'm reflecting on my behaviors might be opposite someone, but if We've negotiated the motivation that's going to bring us together and that's our doorway to start the conversation. I'm wondering if the two of you have a shared motivation that really helps to situate even those moments where you have to have a courageous conversation. I'm wondering if you've had that conversation between the two of you. What's our shared motivation that's going to help us decrease the likelihood that we're going to get into a disagreement?
[00:31:52] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think disagreements are always going to happen. I'm going to just lay it out there at times. But as you said, I think how do we, we manage those a little bit and I think it's recognizing what are our motivations and what are the things that help us tick. But then, and oftentimes there are things that are very similar too. So what are things that are important to us? Our ideology is really important to us. So how do we approach that with ourselves, our hockey team, but in our family? So what do we want, you know, our young daughters to be grown up in and how do we take some of those values that we have that we try to live by every day and integrate it into our family into a bit of chaos with a young almost seven year old and four and a half year old that sometimes listen and sometimes do not.
So we see our leadership challenged within our family by those two. Because you're trying to reason or you're trying to take different approaches and depending on the day it's, it lands really well and then the next day you can do the same approach and it's, it's not that great. But I, yeah, so I think that's really important is understanding for us, our values, like what are our values and then how do we let that guide how we interact and try to teach our daughters, but then also our team. And I think that that's been a really helpful part to stay connected, but a really helpful part in guiding our step because ultimately our values are who we are. So if we suddenly have to take a path here and we're like, it actually doesn't resonate, even though it might lead to this path of success. Is that how we want to get there? And I think that that's always been a guiding force for both of us is we're going to be who we are. And the things that are core values, even in adversity, that's what we have to still guide ourselves with. And I think that's a really important part that allows us to. And it's the same thing at Concordia. We have a team first culture that we share with everyone and that's our values. And those that have been recruited, they get shared that before they come. And we probably talk to it a bunch of times throughout the recruitment process. But our players, once we come on, we talk about it every opening meeting and at the same time we then talk about it again and have a team first commitment we make not at the start of the season, but a little bit in a month or two in so that we've lived it a bit so we understand actually what is it like to live versus looking at a piece of paper. And this is our commitment. So we have really strong values in our program that we want to embody every day and know that it's an everyday thing. And so how do we live by that and let that be our team guiding force within all of our own personal differences. And I think that's gonna, that's helped us a lot as well.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: That's so powerful. What about you, Carol? Any. Any thoughts on a shared motivation and that how that helps you? I love what you said, Julie. Of course we're going to have disagreements. It's the recipe of life. But how do we want to have those disagreements? Any other comments from you, Carol?
[00:34:51] Speaker B: I think we set our culture is really the foundation of what we do and who we are and who we become. And it's always needs work like weekly, daily in our meetings, in our one on one with our athletes. But I think at the core of everything that we do, we do have, we have team first. But then what really drives us is that we are able to create an environment where they can be who they are and they can be comfortable with who they are, where they know that their voice matter, no matter if they're in first year or in fifth year, no matter if they are a captain or not a captain. And also where they can be open and honest with us. And I think when you create that culture and that atmosphere, you, you people can become vulnerable and can have tough conversation and they can come to us and, and confide in us if they are experiencing anything difficult at home. So for me, I know that I needed to become better at listening. Like I needed to really listen with a purpose and not listen ready to answer and really reinforce what I was hearing. And so I really needed to work on those listening skills and still today working on that patience to receive and to process and take the time before I reply and before I organize my thoughts. But at the core of everything that we do we want to make sure that they feel safe, that they feel loved, that they feel respected. And when we are able to create that, then we are able to sometimes shake them and have of honest conversation when it's not going well. When you know the compete level, for example, it's not at the level that we wanted to be every day. For example, in our first game we weren't happy as coaches with. We still won the game but we weren't competing, we weren't outworking the opponents and for us that's a non negotiable. So we had a really honest conversation about that and the team responded really well. In game two, we, we played for a good 60 minutes. We played for one another. The energy was better.
There was no Debbie downer moments. And that's what we want to have every day in everything that we do. So I think when you create that culture where people can be themselves, then you can give it to them in a direct way when it's not going, going back to, hey, this is what's important to us. This is what we talked at this, those are our values. This is at the core of what we want to be every day to make us successful. And, and you can have that, those great conversations that you need at times.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: That's so powerful. And if I were Debbie, I'd be really sad all the time.
[00:37:52] Speaker C: Or Debbie, that's all.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: I just want to wrap her in my arms.
Thank you for sharing those beautiful stories. It's really heartwarming. And people are now, through your stories are now starting to get maybe a deeper appreciation of what would be helpful to help a high performance athlete, leader, coach perform at their best. Right. So Julie, is there a story we've invited you to think about a story of how integrating the nova has positively impacted the way that you lead the team. Maybe share a story with us.
[00:38:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's in two ways. So I might share like kind of two, separate one from our leader's perspective, also having had conversations with one and then also what, what. How do we approach our players a little differently? So as we said like our team first culture is really, really important. So I'll kind of start on my side of things. So part of it is giving a full effort every day. So the compete and the battle having a positive attitude. And a positive attitude for us isn't just like smiling, good energy, giving and hoorah. But it's thinking of every scenario. I'm tired today. And either saying, oh, I'm tired. We have to be here or I'm tired, but I'm going to give my best. They just scored a goal against us. Not the best thing, but this is how we're going to positively respond. So that's a positive attitude. And then accepting and owning our roles. So for us, that's who we are. So when people aren't being those things, it's taking the patience to understand, to think, okay, what are they going through and how can we help them? And that was something that's really important. Now is changing that dialogue as opposed to being like, why are they doing this? Let's go like, and being really short about it and being mad about someone that maybe consistently can't do it yet, but understand, okay, what are they going through and how can we help them? And so last year, like we really love to coach, so we're really hands on and it can, you can go to practice and we try to give feedback really consistently to our players. We're not just running drills, let them do what they want and then, you know, if there's corrections to be made, not saying much, if they do something great, we're giving them a tap and we're probably cheering and celebrating with our arms up in the air. If they're, you know, make a mistake. They were saying, hey, like think about this in your next rep.
So we had a player that was just struggling last year. She had a harder time and you know, as she wasn't executing in practice, it just, and then in games too, because they are tied, just got a bit heavier and heavier and we weren't being negative with her, we weren't coming and, and you know, berating her because that's not how we coach at all or yelling at her. And we were just going in and consistently giving her feedback, trying to help her give tips. But at the time it actually was not helpful because she just, she just got a bit heavier and heavier and she wouldn't necessarily show it because she's a kind of a player that's outwardly a little bit louder and energetic and, and likes to play more with a smile, but was just a little heavier. So eventually she was courageous enough to have a conversation because we like to say we create those environments to allow it that she was able to open up to say, you know, I'm struggling right now and it's really hard and you know, I know and I make mistakes and then I grip my stick stronger and next thing I know it's heavier and I can't get out of my own head in these moments. So we Said, okay, what do you need from us right now? Although we are someone that loves to coach, give feedback consistently. So if you miss two of these passes, usually we go in and that's our time to be a little more red and say, hey, we got to, we got to focus in details here. We can do that majority of the time. So we said, right now, one, do you know when you make the mistake? And she goes, yes. I go, okay, so we don't need to tell you right now. So what do you need from us? Do you want just a tap? And she goes, I don't want you not to coach me. And I go, no, it's not about not wanting to coach you, but what do you need right now so that you can be in a good place to receive more? And I think she said, well, yeah, maybe right now we just. I just need some taps because I know when I'm making the mistake, but maybe just a little more of that and say. I said, perfect, like we'll do more of that. So we actually didn't really give her more direct feedback unless it was something really that it looked like she was lost in. But if it's just the execution of something we know she understands it was more. So she doesn't need us right now to give her feedback. And it allowed her to give. I kind of gave her permission to one struggle, but give her permission to also be more light hearted when she makes mistakes. Right? Because I think she had this sense that she had to be really super serious all the time, which is funny because I'm like always making jokes and I'm not really super serious.
And there's other players on our team that are, that they're very serious, they're really focused and that because that's what drives them and that's how they succeed. And we said to her, you don't have to be that. Like I used to make a mistake and if I made a mistake, I wasn't there going, okay, this is in my mind. I was saying, hey guys, sorry about that, I brought my eraser or hey, that was pretty bad because that helped me release. And I said, that might be you. And that's okay. So I'm not suddenly seeing you joke or do that and think that you're not serious or you don't care, that's your way of being you. And I think that helped her. And we had. She turned kind of the corner when she gave herself forgiveness and we gave her the space she needed or the feedback she needed so that she can Then in the second half, live who she is and be who she is and keep it lighter. And she was great in the second half and we've talked about that actually, and we've talked about how it really helped her because she for so long felt like she had to be more on the serious note of things, not only for us, but before she got there because she had some coaches that said, hey, you've got to be more serious. And for us, we've never said that, but I think just because we are in an environment where we are highly focused and we are going, she just naturally felt like maybe I had to be that. But we gave her the permission to be her. And by doing that and telling her that, and I think that's part of it too, is actually saying, hey, you can just be you versus assuming she knows she can just be her her. That was a really powerful moment and we saw a lot of growth in that.
[00:44:01] Speaker D: I just love that because it's almost like you got out of the way and instead of making an assumption about what she needed, you just asked her a powerful question to say, what do you, what do you need right now? Can we support you? What?
And then it gives her an opportunity to self determine and have some agency about what it is that she needed. Wow. Yay.
I love that.
[00:44:25] Speaker C: And it's powerful. And. And I said that the second part, what I was saying is now seeing it live in our players. And so we have our captain, Carolyn Mokin Jaber, who's, you know, who is really direct and she's really. But that's something our team lacks. Our team is more green. So that is a bit of our limitation impossible area. And so conflict and just being direct is a little bit tougher. So we need it from her. And I know from sometimes she was saying, I know I'm always saying the wrong things. I go, no, you're not. You're just saying it in ways that actually our team does need. Because you've seen it now, you've seen our profile. We are have. We have trouble highlighting this area. So we need you to be able to say that. But we also probably need like us to understand who are we speaking with, that maybe they needed a little different in certain situations to be able to receive it better. And that's what we learned from Loren and from sports law and Arnova is that's what it's allowing us to do. So we've seen that from last year where she had a couple moments like, oh goodness, I should have probably said this Differently. Knowing who I was speaking to and seeing her this year really take that into her leadership and the way she's communicating with different people and understanding that for her, she has to work on sometimes the delivery of it. Not the content, because the content was always good, but the delivery of it in certain situations, because there's some situations where you don't have time. And it's got to be direct and it's got to be fully.
Not unfiltered. Unfiltered. It's not that she unfilters, but fully. This is it, and let's go. So we need that. But I've seen a real effort and a great resin resonance from her teammates of the way she's able to say that she actually had a teammate yesterday give her, like, the B after a regular season win, which is basically honoring a player for something that they contributed really positively in the game. And they said, your voice in our locker room is palpable, and we feel it, and it's awesome. And it was really cool moment because I think KE needed to hear that, because I think sometimes she thinks I mess up a lot in what I say. And I said, no, we need you. We need your voice, and we still need to grow and learn how other people will receive it better. But she's been incredible, and I think this program has really helped that.
[00:46:44] Speaker D: Oh, that's beautiful. So in the. In the first couple of years, we focused on the coaches and the player leaders and captains, and now in our third year, we're working, you know, working together.
What was that shift or the impetus to include the entire team this year? Like, why did you decide to, you know, roll it out to everybody?
[00:47:08] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I think the big thing was seeing it be successful within two groups, like our two leadership groups back to back years. But then last fall, actually, we had a really. A bigger incoming class, so. And that incoming class just happened to be players that lived at home, so they weren't really around the rink. So when you live in apartments around the rink, there's more time to be able to build relationships, because instead of going to school and then going home, and then 45 minutes later, someone last minute says, hey, like, we're going to the soccer game or we're going to grab dinner, there's no ability to then just, all right, I'm going to drive 45 minutes to go grab ice cream with my teammates. So there was a slower process last fall of really connecting and building those relationships because of a bigger class, but then also that class, you know, 75% didn't live close by. So they weren't as prepared and saying, hey, we're going to do this on Thursday night, stick around before they're already back at home. So we found that in that there was a lot more misunderstandings of understanding who that person was and why. Like oh the, you know, are they trying to be more distant or they don't want to integrate with us in that. And we're saying there's a lot of reasons. One, let's think about the situation itself of people living further away or not. But then let's think about them as people and what, who are they and what are the things that they're bringing with them on a daily basis? Right. Are some just really shy and, and maybe not really comfortable in their own skin yet? Are some, you know, very outgoing allowed but under the surface there's other things going on. So I think that it was really clear last fall from our leadership group that was trying, but I think that's why they wanted everyone to be connected right away. But they couldn't really understand why it was like these people weren't connected right away.
And we were like, like everything's normal. Like this is actually part of the process and we're not supposed to be this close knit team after three weeks. It takes time, right. And, and so I think out of their, their desire to want to be great leaders and want to have this team that's like this, which is what the season before finished at, we said, okay, patience. But it really became clear that this is something. If they understood who their teammates are and how they want to be communicated and what drives them, then it's going to help them actually be more patient or it's going to help them communicate and form those connections. And so that's why we rolled it out. And again, as we talked about in our, our process, Loren, together we're like, well, let's give it a shot and let's see how it goes. Because we knew the Nova itself, the profile would be beneficial. There's so many things there by doing that alone. But then we weren't able to do one on one debriefs with all of our team. Like we have a large team over 20 people, so we're like, let's try the small groups. And I think the challenge for us is why the small groups were wondering, okay, would it work or not is because we did a lot of this work in the summer before we came together as a full team. And so we're integrating our incoming Players, some that people know, but some that they don't. So now we're going into some debriefs where you have to be pretty vulnerable at times and with people that you don't really know. So we didn't really know how it would go, but the feedback from our players and it seems from incoming to returning players was. It was really positive. And the way that you were able to lead it helped them understand more what the nova was bringing, understand more themselves, but still feel pretty comfortable sharing. Although there's still probably a good amount of discomfort for some. But that's okay. Sure, we don't mind that. But the overall experience was still really, really beneficial and positive. That is something for sure. I would do again in those small groups. I do think for the leadership side of a leadership group, if you do have the ability for the one on one, there's something really powerful in that too. And you can deep dive really specifically because then I can ask you for 90 minutes all these questions right. When you're three to four people, then you know other people are asking too, and we have to give space to others, I guess.
But the whole experience was really positive. So that's what led us to year three, including the whole team and then in person all together, which I thought was a really powerful day and had a lot of positive things that came out of that experience.
[00:51:25] Speaker D: Yeah, we had a lot of fun, didn't we?
[00:51:27] Speaker C: Yes, we did.
[00:51:28] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, Caro, what. What changes or shifts or even some breakthrough moments are you seeing already in. In terms of team cohesion and the dynamics and communication? How has this contributed to, you know, supporting that?
[00:51:46] Speaker B: Oh, I think last year Julie alluded to it. Like her, our leaders stronger from this program we have together. They. They wanted to lead so much that they wanted to force the bonding. And like some positive that we saw though is like for example, our captain, one of the first thing that she did is she took every first year out for a coffee. And we thought that was incredible. Just trying to get to know them, what ticks, what works, what doesn't, what's going well in their life, what they want to work towards. How do they feel about joining this team? What are their fears? What are. Where are they comfortable? I thought that was super powerful. But as we went along and because of the situation that Julie spoke about, where most of them lived far from home, our leaders felt that they didn't live the team first and they weren't all in, which was not the case at all. And they even Question whether they were having a good experience.
And we were like, okay, time out. Okay. So we were about to have individual meetings, which we have four times a year, early in preseason. We have it right before exam period, so right before Christmas. Then we have it right before playoffs, which is a huge part of, you know, our season. That's where it matters. So that's when we want to be the best team that we can be on and off the ice. And then we have it after this season to have a debrief on everything that we experience. So we're like, hold on. Like, let us have those conversation. Let's. Let us ask, you know, our first years, are they doing, you know, are they enjoying their experience? And overall, it was all super positive. Everyone was loving every day, was feeling like the team was connected. So we went back to. We decided to have a leadership group meeting and make a meal and something longer because that's where we needed help and we needed clarification, and we want. We needed to reassure them that, you know, you're doing.
You're doing what is expected and people are having a good experience. It doesn't feel like it felt at the end of last year yet, because the truth is, we were on this winning streak where we ended up having an undefeated season of 25 0. So we were still halfway through that, but we hadn't had a ton of adversity yet. So the bonding wasn't yet complete, and it wasn't, you know, as strong as it was at the end of the past season, but it was just the normal process of it. But for us, it was to check in. Okay, Our first year, and our younger players are actually loving everything about this team. They're loving their experience. They're loving your leadership. So let's be patient here in this process. We're on the right path. We're. We're trending in the right direction. Is it going to be easy moving forward? No.
And I think our hardest job last year was. Was trying to release that pressure that was building as we were winning and winning and winning and winning and. And never losing because it became, oh, maybe we should lose, because superstitious. If we go undefeated, maybe it's gonna happen at the end. And we're like, no, like, we have earned every single of those wins. There's not one of those games where we weren't the best team out of the two. Okay. Were there periods that we weren't great? Absolutely. Were there times where our goalie saved us? Absolutely. But that's part of hockey in the end, we earned to be 25. And it's funny because our first moment of adversity ended up in playoffs. So we had two series of three games. The first series, we. We win game one, we lose game two. So now we come back at home for game three, and it was against Ottawayu. And one of the first thing they published online was Concordia undefeated no more.
So you can imagine that that spiked some, you know, motivation. And then for us, we took the approach, okay, we need to change some of the things that we're doing. It's not working, we're not scoring. So how can we make some changes for in game three to make sure that we're going to come on top and we're going to be the better team? So we challenged our players to attack differently, and they did. They embraced it. And we won 13 nothing, which I've never seen in my career. Like, we were on fire from the start of puck drop. We still needed our goalie to make two huge saves. But a team responded, they adapted and adjusted and. And we were clearly like dominating that game. Now we go to the final, we lose game one. So now we have to go to the University of Montreal, win as visitor, which is harder, and we respond, we have a great game. So now we return at home for game three. Again, everything's on the line. And again we had an incredible game. We won, I think 10, four.
But we had that adversity eventually, which prepared us to go to the national championship ranked number one in the country. So a great deal of pressure there. Then you start against the host team of U Saskatchewan in front of almost 4,000 people, which we're not used to experiencing at that level. And again, we had to support our players with those expectations, with everything building up. And in the end, I think we became a team that was bonded and was ready to play for one another. But it was a process and it needed time. And I think that a great deal of our challenge last year was not. Not helping our first year, but helping our leaders and making sure that they were working well together. They were embracing their differences and finding better ways to communicate so they could be great with the team. And I think that's what we were able to do. And that's what I'm most proud of. Because our first years were fine. It was helping our leaders deal with the building of pressure. The heart heartbreak of the losing the year before with 1.8 seconds and then losing in overtime, that national championship, there was almost death that was still lingering around, you know, that was still, they were still carrying that heaviness in their backpack, which is something that I learned from you to talk about. Like, what are you carrying on your backpack every day? Is it making you light or is it making you heavy? And we had, we had to have those conversation where there was still some heaviness from the year before. But I think in the end we, you know, I remember that meal. We ordered Indian food and we made it a comfort food meeting. And we were really open and honest with one another. The leaders worked with one another. They needed to figure out some stuff between them. And we came back after the Christmas pause, you know, ready to take another step. And we sure did. And I think in the end that's what made us was the best team in the country.
[00:59:14] Speaker D: Wow. You know what I'm really excited to debrief with you at the end of this season is last year and the previous year, the player leaders and the captains had this language inside of them called the Nova profile. They had this language, but the rest of the team didn't have it. Now the entire team has this language inside of them and it just opens up new possibilities. And so that's what I'm really excited to really see is what is going to happen and shift for your team now that everybody has this inside of them.
[00:59:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. It's very powerful. Loren, Caro and Ginny, you have me thinking about the importance of rituals. We talked about that at the beginning of our conversation. Conversation. How do we let go, let go and say goodbye? So we call that conscious completion. Right. How do I consciously end this experience that will never be the same? Because the purpose is not for it to be the same. The purpose is for it to be this experience with new players.
Now you change one person in a group dynamic. It can change everything. So you're helping us see and our listeners kind of tap into deliberate, intentional ways to build teams. There are processes we can put in place. And as the two of you have so beautifully said, you can't like snap it on demand. We are in such a consumeristic, speed driven society and we're so attached to an outcome that is sport. Right? You get rewarded for speed and outcomes. What you are, you know, pointing and tapping into is sport is not just about medals, it's about human development. Kahui, that's what you spoke to early on. And so for me, parenting and leading and coaching, they are similar ways of being. And depending on the needs of these young athletes who are coming into your care, you might need to tap more into a More parenting approach, because that's what the moment means. So I'm. I'm super grateful for this exchange. And I know we've gone a little bit longer, but that is the beauty of our podcast. We can go a little bit longer. So with your permission, I want to turn this to you, Carol. And, you know, I want to take us meta right now because you've been a part of the Canadian sports system and landscape. And, you know, Julie, you're. We're cousins, right?
U.S. and Canada, cousins. So it seems to me that sport is in transition. It needs to be in transition. It needs to evolve. The sport that was designed in the 70s and 80s and the residual legacy that we've inherited primarily as women and women of color, right? We see the world differently. So the fact that we have inherited these policies and procedures and practices and rituals that may have served a time, certainly do not serve in today's time. I'm wondering, you know, what advice would you give, Carol, to emerging coaches, to the current leadership that's taking a much deeper dive now and looking at the Canadian sports system? And I'd like to invite that, maybe through Nova colored glasses, what would it look like? You know, what would your invitation be to the leaders who are examining the sports system right now to evolve it into something that is more holistic, the kind of experience that the two of you are speaking to. What would you say if you had your two minutes of fame?
[01:03:05] Speaker B: It's tough. I think the first thing would be you have to get to know yourself and get to know yourself deeply and to know your strength and to know what areas you need to constantly work on. And I think that, you know, from my experience as an athlete, it's changed so much. Like, now you have to set a foundation for collaboration.
In my times, it was more a dictatorship at times, where we were told what to do, but not often why we were doing what we were doing. And now today, we have to spend a lot of time on explaining the why and digging and always finding ways to keep the purpose alive. Like, I think Julie alluded to it. But I think the pandemic changed a lot of people, made it more difficult for people to commit and to stay committed to something that takes up hours and hours of their lives. When they see other things and they're like, oh, maybe I want to do that instead. So if you do not create a positive culture, an environment where people are thriving and are loving every day, even when it's difficult, people are going to leave, people are going to give up, people are going to change and pursue other things. So as leaders, I think we have to know, as I said earlier, that you are doing human relations. Yes, you can keep getting better with teaching the skills of your sports, but where you're going to spend most of your time is dealing with humans and digging to find out what is the root of the problem when they are not well, because when people are unwell, they cannot be good at what they do and they cannot love what they do. So I think leadership and coaching is. Is much more difficult than we realize when we are athletes. It's much more demanding. There's always things to deal with, people to deal with, it comes with that. But when you surround yourself with other great leaders where you can be authentic, you can be yourself, you can, you can have direct conversation first within your leadership group, then it's contagious with your athletes, and you build that all pyramid of working together. But, you know, having the trust between the staff, between the coaches is at the foundation of what you want to set for your athletes. You know, only if you do. Like I've been part of teams where the coaching stuff was dysfunctional, then it's hard for the athletes to be connected, to be united when they don't feel it is at the foundation. Right. For me, the coaches are not at the top. They're the foundation of the team we're working with for the main common goals. So I think it's continuing to explore, to know yourself, to know what your strengths are and what areas you have to work on for improvements. And it's, it's continual, it's. It's never gonna stop and it's always going to be super challenging. But when you see people evolve, when you see a connection being built, when you see people transition out of a difficult moment and really thrive and really excel at it, it's the most rewarding job in the world. And for me, I love coaching because I don't feel like I work every day. I get up and I get. Get to teach a game and I get to work with people that are passionate, that are hardworking, that have goals and I have dreams. And I feel very lucky to be able to do that with people I love as well.
[01:06:58] Speaker A: Wow. Mic drop.
So I'm going to invite Loren to, you know, close off this exquisite conversation before I do. You know, Julie, in response to what you just heard, Kavalyn share any kind of final words, observations, you know, hopes that you have for a healthier, holistic sport environment for everyone.
[01:07:20] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, I think as coaches we have to be dynamic. You know, I think there's always this sense, oh, we have to treat everyone the same. And that is not true. We still have to do it within our same standards. But as we know, everyone resonates with things a little differently. So when we have the opportunity to then approach every individual within a team in a way that makes them successful, that's actually how we get the most out of everyone and how we build the best teams. But it's tough. It takes a lot of time and effort. If you have a team of five, it still takes a lot of effort, but it's easier than for us, a team of 23 to 26 players, and then you add another 15 staff members. So we have a group of 40 that we have to be able to make that a priority. And sometimes when it becomes less, we realize, oh, yeah, we actually became less attentive to these areas and we see the negative impact. Right? Or, yeah, we were able to pour more into this. And I think early on especially, we have to spend the time and effort to really build those. And once you build that trust, and Carolyn said it, but then once you build the trust and during maybe the sunny times, we'll say, then when we need to dive in, when we need to challenge each other both ways, right, we ask our players, what can we do better for you and the team? And we've now had players that we've developed with great relations with over time that have that confidence and the belief and the knowledge that they can be pretty direct with us on things they don't like from us and be able to know that we're not going to hold it against them, but it's just part of our growth process. So it's something you have to invest in, and it's an investment, and it takes time. It takes effort at the start especially, but then on a daily basis, and I think that that's something where we have to realize in the same amount of time that we put into our practice plans, to our online skills, if we don't have that foundational base, then when I give feedback, when I am able to try to teach those skills, those feedbacks are only going to be received to a certain extent if that trust isn't there prior. And it takes time to build that. So we. We spend a lot of time on it, we believe in it, and we are really grateful for the resources that you've helped us with and these continued conversations. We can't just say, okay, we did it once, and all right, we know Everything. And then we kind of move on. No, we have to have continued conversations. We have to have continued learning.
And so every time, this is my third year going through this process, and every time, I'm always like, yeah, and sometimes it's just a repeat of this, of the same message, and sometimes it's something new or something that's been there, but I just hadn't thought about it in a certain way. So those continued conversations are really, really important to have, but it's a commitment. And I think it's. When we do, we see the benefits for the success of sports, say, but ultimately for the enjoyment and success of people as well.
[01:10:20] Speaker A: Wow. This was.
This was exquisite is the word that's coming up for me. And, you know, Julian, Carol, you talk about meeting this moment, right? Because even though I've done this work before, it's kind of like set plays.
Every time you do a set play. Well, after a while it gets old because now everybody's doing your set play, your secret sauce. So you have to keep investing in this in order for this to. For us to stay humble and useful as leaders. So over to you, Loren, you know, to maybe put a cap on this. These kinds of experiences are made possible when you have the support of a masterful coach, someone like Loren, who can help you, help guide you in this process, demystify some of the human experience. So, Loren, you know, what are. What's your. Any parting observations before we bring this conversation to a close?
[01:11:17] Speaker D: Yeah, so, first of all, I'm just sitting in so much gratitude for the opportunity to have worked with, with the two of you and your massive team. I think what's really striking me right now is, you know, something that you said, Caro, at the beginning is like, I wish I'd had this when I was an athlete. And look what you're doing for the players. You are giving them this gift that you never had. Oh, I feel a little bit emotional right now when I think about it, because this is going. This is going to make the difference and you're building leaders, and that's what we need to do. We don't. We can't wait till they're leaders to build the leader. We need to be building these exquisite human beings that, that happen to be players and building their leadership. They're going to go off and do amazing things and hopefully they'll also stay in sport. So thank you for saying yes to this opportunity. I. I can't wait to keep watching and observing and, and being a part of your lives, because I think the two of you are it. You're the it. You're the girls.
[01:12:23] Speaker A: I love that we're the.
You know, David White, who's a poet that Loren and I have studied under, you know, he says, we shape ourselves to fit this world. And by the world are shaped again, the visible and the invisible working together in common cause to produce the miraculous. Right?
[01:12:43] Speaker D: Amen.
[01:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen. So thank you to the two of you, a deep bow of gratitude to Loren for, you know, so beautifully and lovingly shepherding the two of you and your team as you were navigating some of these unknown waters. Because, truth be told, there aren't that many examples of people like you being willing to invest in the human part of the sport experience. And I think there's going to be more. I think as more people listen to stories like yours, examples of exemplars like you, it's going to inspire people as we transition into a new way of being for the Canadian sports system and hopefully the world system as well. So in the episode notes below, you're going to find some sport law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. Thank you so much to our listeners. We're so grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you as we look to elevate sport. As always, to have your say in Sportopia. Email us@helloportlaw CA or on social media @sportlawca to let us know what you want to hear about next. Until then, stay tuned for the next episode.
