Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indig at Sport Law. Leave me a message. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: We're delighted to host lessons on leadership, inspiring conversations with some of Canadian sport's most experienced and humanistic leaders.
Today's guest has spent more than four decades shaping the Canadian sport landscape from the inside out. Janet McMahon recently retired as President and CEO of Sport Manitoba, a role in which she made history as the organization's first female chief executive.
Over the course of her career, Janet has contributed to Canadian sport at every level, from regional competitions to the international stage, serving as mission staff at games across the country and around the world. She also played key roles with the host societies of two landmark events, the 1999 Pan American Games in Winnipeg. Fun fact, I was the pregnant press chief at those Games.
And the 2017 Canada Summer Games. Janet brings to this conversation not just decades of institutional knowledge, but a deeply human approach to leadership that has earned her the respect of colleagues and athletes alike.
Welcome to Sportopia, Janet. We're so glad that you're here.
[00:01:55] Speaker C: I'm happy to be here, too.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so great. I mean, we've traveled a long distance together. Janet, I think I was 25 or 26 when I first met you, and you weren't. You weren't, you know, the. The that far off from me age wise. So it's just great to have seen and gotten to know you so deeply over these last, you know, for me, 35 years now and just grateful that we get to have this more meaningful conversation with you and so others can maybe learn a little bit more about you and the significant impact you've had on Canadian sport. But before we get to that, we have this little practice internally to say what is coming across your desk. And so, Steve, do you want to kick it off?
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Right after our the recording of today's podcast, I have a meeting with a pso. And the catalyst behind that is they had referred me a client a couple weeks ago for a, I'll say, a discipline matter.
Some bumpy roads happening within the organization. Then, of course, as all of you know who listen to the podcast, my first question was, what does your policy say? And they sent them to me and they were about four lines.
And I said, well, this is not really helpful in helping manage your current problem. And that led to a conversation with the PSO saying, you know, what can we do to support clubs in all these different areas that they feel they're covered, except they're not. When the, when the smoke starts to come up and we actually need to implement those policies, we found a lot of gaps. So I'm very excited to have a meeting with the, with the PSO leader to talk about ways that we can support clubs from a policy perspective and education perspective and of course a bylaw perspective.
So there's that. And then later this afternoon, I have an in person, imagine that in person presentation with an NSO on good governance and ways that organizations can improve their governance. So I'll be talking about nominations, screening, directors, recruitment, good governance principles. And one of the other new things I'd like to talk about is really the definition of member.
It doesn't mean every single person who participates in your sport. It's really who do you want electing your board?
And we've talked about large clubs with large voting pools and the lack of attendance at those meetings, in my opinion, creates a pretty big risk to the organization. So really cool projects this afternoon. How about you, Dina?
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Well, I'm working on a policy as well. It's a crisis communication implementation plan that we're going to nestle in under their risk management.
And also introducing, you know, just some clarity around when a risk arises. We know that we have to communicate around it. Right. It's just good practice. It's also good risk mitigation. But beyond that, also now starting to think about clearly defining what is the board and their responsibility, reminding them to speak with one voice. It's okay to say I don't have the answer, but I'll get back to you and let you know who will respond if it's a mic in their face. So just being really clear on the education that has to accompany any policy.
And then in the conversation, we also talked about AI and what is our relationship with AI and how do we honor confidentiality and privacy if we're uploading everything into AI without any safeguards? So starting to deal more proactively with some of those communication type commitments, Steve and Janet, that I really enjoy doing. So that's what's coming across my desk. What about you, Janet? What's coming across your desk?
[00:05:50] Speaker C: Well, I'm not really at my desk very often, but longer coffee breaks in the morning, sitting out in the deck, listening to birds, and I think a little bit reflecting on the last 40 years and where we're at and where we're going in sports. You know, I keep saying I've been back to the office a few times and I keep saying we and everybody laughs and go, for me, it will always be we.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really beautiful place to start because, you know, what makes my heart sing is when I get to connect with relational leaders.
You know, I think the three of us are probably close enough in age that we probably learned under more direct, you know, outcome focus leaders and, and coaches and the do as I say, not do as way as I model. And yet what we're now knowing now and the, the kind of what research is pointing to is remember, people aren't going to remember what you said or did. They're going to remember how you made them feel. So how do we want people to feel, you know, under our leadership? I think that's a really beautiful question. And of course, Janet, maybe are there any thoughts on, on that you. It feels like you stood for relational type leadership even before it had a name.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: Well, I think your point about who we worked for is really important.
And I think the key for me was observing people and different styles and then deciding what I wanted to do or how I wanted to relate to other people. And I think that in some ways that was a great mentorship for me.
I worked for a lot of men and they were wonderful, but they did have a very different relationship with management and staff. And I think for me, just watching and understanding and listening to what people were saying about that was very helpful for me to realize who I wanted to be and how I wanted to manage.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: I want to tap on that. Janet, who you wanted to be, how you managed, who you managed. You mentioned 40 years in sports, so let's roll the clock back 40 years.
And little young Janet is aggressive and confident and wants to get involved in sport.
Why? How, how did this all start?
[00:08:21] Speaker C: Well, it started with me not getting accepted into a master's program and not going and playing my fifth year of basketball. So I went back to my hometown of Brandon and my sister was doing some career counseling and she said, neil, you haven't been for a job interview forever.
You should apply for this west man sport organization six month term.
So I did. I was planning to move to Toronto.
My sister had just moved back from Germany. And I went for the interview and it was a really nice group of people. And I asked them when they'd make the decision. They said probably that evening.
The next day I phoned and asked and they said no, I'm sorry, we've given it to another candidate. So I rushed downtown, bought my ticket to Toronto, was going to leave after the long weekend.
I got home and my mom was home from work and I thought that's weird. Well, I put her phone number on my resume because she didn't have a cell phones and the person they offered the job to turned it down.
So they offered it to me. So it was a six month contract to, for the 1984 Manitoba Winter Games.
So I worked for a volunteer organization in Brandon and I ended up there for a couple years. So, and that was a, A, you know, a great learning experience. I'd never work with volunteers, I'd never manage finances.
You know, in school back then we learned how to do a page drawn curling, we learned program development, we didn't learn governance and some of the key things.
So for me, you know, over the years it was a bit of learning trial of, you know, learn, learn in the job. It wasn't like I came to the job with all of the knowledge and experience I needed.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Same is true today. Sadly, you know, a lot of the leaders we support, because I'm a leadership coach, I hear those stories. And whether it's an executive from, you know, a multinational outside of sport or someone who's an executive in sport, I hear the common theme of they never really taught us this in grad school or in med school.
[00:10:41] Speaker C: I say this to, you know, a lot of people, even the university faculty, you know, if you can't read a balance sheet, go take an accounting or, you know, a finance course. Because so much of what we do now has to be understood. I mean the years and years that I spent looking at funding documents, honestly, I think now I'd say submit your financial statement and your plan for the year and I would make decisions based on that. Not the 50 page document telling us how good it is and how good it's going to be. Yeah, put your money where your mouth is, right?
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's sage advice, isn't it Steve? And it's true and it's also partial. Right, like the, the bottom line and the numbers are, are kind of like the starting point because without those numbers and that resources, then you're running to try and secure more resources to deliver more programs. So I, I do feel the, the, the imperative of understanding what are the assets that we can begin with. And in today's climate it's, it's really challenging because as you know, up until recently, sport hasn't received a bump in, in funding, you know, for over 20 years. So it, it's, it's always this tension, I find, Steve and Janet, between sport being a luxury and sport being a fundamental asset contribution to Canadian society. And we're not going to figure that out here on the call. And it' for us to remember, you know, the, the, the foundation might be things like governance and structure and risk management and financial management, but then when you come into the ecosystem, who is, who is actually nurturing and taking care of the human heart? Because often those conflicts and those issues arise out of people not feeling respected or welcomed. And Janet, we'd love to know from you, you know, we were talking about, just before we, we jumped on, we were talking about the paint has not dried yet. You know, Janet may have left the building, but come back a few times and, and it's still this big. We. Because of course, our attachments don't just get severed, you know, in, in a nanosecond, you've had such an indelible, you know, imprint on not just sport in Manitoba, but sport in Canada. So maybe share with us what has been some of the most significant, rewarding experiences for you as a leader.
[00:13:09] Speaker C: Well, I think it is about, you know, humanity and, and human potential.
And we don't do any of this alone. Right. Sport is a team environment.
So I think it's really about coaching people, young people along.
I think it's playing to people's strengths. Nobody has everything we need in this industry, right? I mean, so we really have to work together to minimize those weaknesses, but allow people to grow and thrive by giving them opportunities, by listening to what they have to say.
And, you know, again, one of the biggest things for me when I moved out of being the director sport to the CEO was a real change in how I, you know, worked with people and what my role was.
I had to not be a doer anymore. I had to be more strategic. I had to work from a perspective of that human relation piece around HR management and those sorts of things. And I think the thing that was really encouraging for me was people's willingness to come forward and provide ideas and recommendations.
And they knew that I would make the decision, but they didn't come going help me. They came, here's our challenge, here's the kinds of things we need to think about, here's some ideas on how we might solve it. And I think that's, you know, that's why we have boards. One brain is multiple brains are better than one.
So I think it's really about having that team approach. And I think that's one of the issues we have right now or challenges within sport is we're very isolated.
PSOs and NSOs are on their own to solve that. We don't have that cross mentorship or sharing that we need to have. Right. I mean we need to bring innovation and, you know, not be stuck on doing things the way we've always done them. And we're in a great divide right now between, you know, that's the great news is I think we're taking a pause and going what do we want sport in Canada to look like? And yes, we want high performance and heroes, but we also want children and young people out there having fun and being physically active and just being part of the joyous sport. I think there's a true look at what do we want here and how do we get there.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Janet, you've mentioned some of the roles that you've had over your 40 year career and particularly the last two were in senior management. I'm going to ask you, I guess a two part question.
You know, how would you say your leadership approach has evolved and where did it end up? And then the second part of that question would be, is there a peak leadership experience that you just, you, you know, just made you smile?
[00:16:22] Speaker C: Well, that's a loaded one, isn't it?
I think over time again playing different roles, you know, again when I started I didn't really ever manage people, so again it was really trying to figure out how they ticked, what worked, what didn't. So I had lots of time to do that.
For many years I was really feel like I was on a treadmill. And when I stepped into the CEO role I had way more time to think and be critically think and being more strategic and observing what was going on. And I think that that was a
[00:17:04] Speaker B: really
[00:17:07] Speaker C: a huge moment of realization that I was just trying to get the work done for so long. It was just doing it, just getting it done and not really being thoughtful or intentional as much as it needed to be. And so I think that that was a really key moment for me. Steve was stepping out of that, you know, just that day to day busyness and not really sitting back and going why are we doing this? Or what are we doing? Where are we going? And having enough time and thought to really think critically or even provocatively about why we do the things we do. And I think that for me it was all of a sudden I was challenged with that, I think in terms of part B, that question, which I think was around. Okay, stop. I can't remember what it was. Steve.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah, it just, you know, your. Your leadership style obviously evolved over your career, and in all the different roles, there's has to be. I'm sure there's several, but maybe you could pick one where it was like the peak.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: You.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: You just felt like, gosh, that was great. And. And maybe you were the c. The CEO or you were the director sport, or you were just a volunteer, but is there an experience that just reminisces. Reminisces with you?
[00:18:28] Speaker C: I think I'd have to say that that moment was working at the 2017 Canada Summer Games.
I was Director of Sport and venues, which I fought to keep those two together after my Pan Am experience.
And, you know, Canada Games for me are mother and apple pie. I love games, and that program has been huge for me in my life.
So going to work for host society, getting out of what I'd been doing for a long time was, first of all, a whole new experience.
And I think the key thing there was I had some very young staff, and we had a deadline. Ceremonies were coming, ready or not.
And I think what really hit me was the relationships with those young people, and even to this day, how they looked up to me as a mentor. And I'd never thought of that, that I ever played that role before.
And I still have an amazing relationship with all of them today. And I think that was, you know, just so rewarding to feel like you had something more to contribute than just getting the job done.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: I. I appreciate that. I appreciate the. The reflection. You know, your morning coffees, Janet, are allowing you to kind of like, sit in where you're at now and then be able to look back with gratitude and remembering that, you know, the impact we can have often on people. And we don't really fully know, do we, until they send us a little email or they give us a call and ask us to be, you know, a reference for them, or maybe they're sending.
Sending us a card to say thank you, you know, thank you for what you did. And you're like, going back and going, did I do that? Like, it's just a part of, you know, who we are as humans to be able to care in that way.
So, you know, you. You stepped into a different phase in your life. And.
And so I'm wondering, as you look back now and you're. You're in this beautiful space, this beautiful cabin, and. And kind of looking back, a more reflective kind of maybe spirit that's alive in you right now, you know, are there, what is it that you maybe what is it that you have most appreciated about serving in sport?
[00:20:55] Speaker C: Oh, the people. There's no question. There are so many tremendous human beings in this, in this field and just the, the variety of relationships, ages, stages, the roles that people played. Like I think back on some of the volunteers that have given decades of their time to the sport, like long after their children were gone and just how phenomenal that is, like full time job, full time family and they give 25 hours a week to a provincial body or a program. Yeah. Amazing coaches like how, what an impact they've had on so many people. So for me, it's all about just the people like you guys that I've met, known for a very long time.
That's what I'll miss most.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: That's music to my ears, Janet. It's, you know, as you know, we do a lot of board trainings, we meet a lot of board members and one of the first things that I always do at a board training is say, you know, tell me about, you know, who are you, what's your name, what do you do and why are you here?
And 99% of the time it's, you know, I'm, I'm this career and my son or daughter is playing on in the club and when someone introduces themselves and they say, hey, I'm Joe Smith and I do this for a career and I just love to give back to soccer, basketball, baseball, and my kids grew out of the program 10 years ago, you're like, oh my God, can I hug you?
That's the person that we absolutely love to see sticking around sport when that vested possible personal interest is gone and they're there for the love of the game.
I'm going to flip that, Janet, from the good news to maybe the more challenging parts.
Obviously again, over a 40 year career would have had some very challenging experiences. Maybe speak about what that was and then how did that change you or shape you moving forward after having to deal with one or more than one? I'm sure,
[00:23:06] Speaker C: I think that the key is when people lose perspective and watching some situations where conflict or certain situations that could have been maybe addressed early on have been left to fester over years and then they explode.
And you know, I've seen some, some phoenixes from that. But also, you know, it, it takes an organization, the sport so far down that it takes some years to recover. So I think that that would be one of just sitting back and watching it. But not really being able to intervene or change the course of the dynamic.
I think the other one for me, Steve, would be Covid.
Covid was a very difficult time and I was still working. I had to interpret public health orders every week. We communicated all the time.
However, I think what I didn't realize was the long term impact on people's mental health.
We saw that internally, externally, athletes, kids.
So I'm not even sure we've recovered from that and whether we've really learned any lessons from it yet.
Those would be my key takeaways in terms of challenges that I faced and, and had an impact on how I would move forward.
Like for me working at the provincial body level, we need to make psos better. We need to figure out how they can be more collaborative, not be in so much isolation. Like, I'm really big now into efficiencies.
I mean, this world, the expectations, what a poor executive director is capable of in the day.
You know, again we go back to governance, finance, volunteer management, athlete management, communications, registration, monument. Like it's insane to think that one person can be an expert or even get all that done in a 50 or 60 hour week.
So we have to figure out, like, do we need here in Manitoba, 60 sport organizations?
Should we be looking at amalgamations? Or even like, I look at the cost of an audit, storage, office space.
Can we figure out a way to have multiple staff work on multiple sports or take those services away and make them, you know, get experts to do them? So we need to, we really need to think about how we can do things differently. I think we are really stuck. I ask people all the time, why, why do you do this this way? Why do you run that program? I go, well, it's always been done that way. Well, that's not a good enough answer anymore.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: It's so powerful, Janet, to listen to you. Because of course, Steve and I, sometimes we feel we're in our own little bubble and imagining better ways of doing something. But really the question is everything.
If we, if we ask, well, why are you doing it this way? The typical response is, well, we've always done it that way. As you just pointed out. If we ask a different question, how might we do it?
If we had unlimited resources, just for a moment, could we dream up, cook up a better way of doing this and what would that even look like? And then wrap a more modern, efficient, effective structure that really reflects and represents people's needs today, not the ones that were designed in the 60s and 70s and 80s when the ecosystem was so Vastly different. Right.
So I really appreciate the reminder that if we ask a different question, we're going to get a different response. And maybe that's one of the things that, you know, has defined your leadership. Being unafraid to ask some of the hard questions and then also, you know, being able to, to sit in those difficult experiences with people and doing that from a place of hope. That's what I always have appreciated about you. Right. Because we've had to travel through sticky situations before, but it's like both are possible, it's hard and I'm still hopeful. Right.
So as we wind down our time together, any last piece of wisdom that you wanted to impart on some of the newer. Remember the little Janets that were coming into the ecosystem?
That feels like yesterday. What, what would you say to them, Janet?
[00:27:51] Speaker C: I think my motto would be work smarter, not harder.
I mean, that sounds very simplistic, but if you really think about it, I find young people don't want to put in 60 hour weeks.
So they have to, they, they need to really be, use their cerebral, you know, brain and think about, you know, prioritization.
What's critical here? Who else can I get me to help me? How do I delegate?
Do we need to do this this way? So, you know, again, I think thing, you know, that I would impart with people that I've learned only probably in the last 10 years is how do we do things differently to be, to have a better outcome or to, to make it more efficient.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Beautiful. I love that. So now we're coming to our favorite part of the podcast. It's just these little rapid fire questions that we hope, you know, speaks to you and then we get to know you a little bit differently.
So Steve, do you wanna, do you wanna start a sov?
[00:29:01] Speaker A: Absolutely. Janet, your favorite place?
[00:29:05] Speaker C: Well, I'd say it has to be here at my cabin at just outside Riding Mountain National Park.
My happy place.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Okay. You're a happy place. I love that. Your favorite song?
[00:29:17] Speaker C: Oh, I'm not sure I have a favorite, Dina. I'm a big fan of female performers. People like Sarah McLaughlin, Joni Mitchell. Bonnie Raitt was in Winnipeg Saturday night.
I like Randy Carlisle, Big fan of women's voices.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: This could be a good segue, Janet. Favorite pastime?
[00:29:39] Speaker C: Favorite pastime?
Well, since I'm not as active as I was, Steve, I'm gonna say reading.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Do you have a favorite book?
[00:29:50] Speaker C: No, I don't think I could pick a favorite. Dana. I'm all over the map in terms of what I read.
[00:29:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'll meet you there. I. I find I'm. I'm reading all kinds of things. What's a favorite saying or quote?
Maybe it's word. You've already said it to work better, not harder. Is there anything else that comes to mind?
[00:30:09] Speaker C: I know.
I'm sorry. I can't come up with anything on that one.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Last one, Jen. I'm gonna make it easy. Chocolate or chips?
[00:30:17] Speaker C: Chips.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: There's a bit of a theme here, Steve.
[00:30:23] Speaker C: Savory for me. Yeah.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Savory.
[00:30:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Good.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Well, we're just delighted that we had a chance to connect with you in this way because we've had the privilege of working with you and alongside you all these years. Really great to have connected with you in this way and. And so. So feel privileged, actually, that you took time out of your schedule to join us and impart some of your wisdom. So.
Episode notes. Below you'll find some Sport Law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. Thank you so much to our listeners. We're really grateful to share our vision of Sportopia with you as we look to elevate sport.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: As always to have your say in Sportopia. Email us@helloportlaw CA to let us know what you want to hear about next. Have a wonderful weekend. We look forward to connecting again soon. And again, Janet, we do appreciate your time today and always great to touch base with you. Thanks everybody. Have a great day.
