Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Indig at Sport Law.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Leave me a message, I'll get back
[00:00:03] Speaker A: to you as soon as I can.
Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: We're delighted to host lessons on leadership, inspiring conversations with some of Canadian sports most experienced and humanistic leaders. In this episode, we welcome Suzanne Pollins and Chief Executive Officer at Swimming Canada. Suzanne has been involved within the sport of swimming for more than 45 years as a master official, FINA referee and technical official at the Toronto 2015 Pan Am Games.
Prior to her time at Swimming Canada, she spent 20 years in the banking industry. Suzanne currently serves as co chair for the Executive Summer Sport Caucus. Welcome, Suzanne.
[00:01:23] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah, we're delighted to have you here too. And Steve and I have this little thing that we do beforehand. We welcome people to just let us know what is coming across their desk this week. We find that always fun and intriguing to do. Although for me right now, I was just saying it feels like wash, rinse, repeat. So, Steve, maybe you can let us know what is coming across your desk.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: It could be a wash, rinse, repeat, but it's not bylaws, it's policies, shoe drop, which I'm sure I talked about several times before on, on this podcast. But tomorrow I'm meeting a client for a full day meeting and it's one of those projects that I, I wish I had come up with was about a decade ago the client approached me and said, we'd like to have Pan Canadian policies, we'd like to have policy consistency across the country. And I went, man, why didn't I? I thought about it, but you're actually doing it. I was so kind of angry with myself, but really happy for them for coming up with it. And the first thing we did was a policy inventory across the country and we had 762 different policies across one sport sector.
And of course when you look at that, you're like, oh my God, what do I do with this? And we chipped away at it and we identified, we had three different pillars. We had governance policies, administrative policies, and then the rules and regulations, the sport specific policies. And we identified five that we created to be Pan Canadian and then we identified another five and 10 years later, we are still going, obviously policies are changing and new ones are required or amendments are required. So it's an ongoing task, but it's a really cool project. And what I love about it is, of course, Ontario can call pei, and PEI can call Alberta, and Alberta can call the Northwest Territories, and they have the same policies. And so I really, really am enjoying this project. And I think it's really beneficial for sport and something to think about for every sport and nso, pso, PTO in the country. Dino, what about you? What's happening?
[00:03:35] Speaker A: Well, I just want to honor Steve, what you said. So to me, what you're saying is when we have the same language, it can minimize needless conflict, because conflict can be really good, right? This tension between you and me, and then that's where creativity sparks and innovation arises as a result of us seeing the world differently.
But what I find challenging for people, especially when they come to us, is the frustration around.
You're saying it this way and I'm saying it this way. We're actually saying the same thing, and we only get to that if we allow trust to be fostered and nurtured. So the fact that you're doing all of this hard work and getting the right language and so that people have this shared understanding, I think is fundamental work. Right now, especially in this complex environment we're in, I'm actually doing a lot more leadership coaching.
I don't know that a lot of leaders know that. At Sport Law, alongside all the legal work we do in the governance work, we also have a growing practice of leadership coaches. Leadership coaches are people that are trained in the art and science of human development.
So these are people that, you know, have spent several years learning in a formalized way. We're certified as International Coaching Federation coaches at. At a professional level. So it just means we've been in devoted practice and learning, and this really lights us up. So I'm very excited because we're getting more people reaching out to us to say, so I'm a leader and I find it lonely work. And it's true. So, Suzanne, we're curious, you know, where you're going to take the conversation. A lot of the leaders that we talk to speak about this loneliness. It doesn't have to be so isolating, but often the loneliness is, I'm stepping into a position of leadership. This is on me. I don't have to figure it out alone, but because I don't really want to go to the board yet, because I want to give them maybe a couple of options to consider, and I don't want to go to the staff yet because maybe this is heavier and I feel it's on me. So this is where leadership coaches kind of rise to the opportunity.
So I'm very excited about this work that we're doing because of course it fills my heart and that of the other leadership coaches at Sport Law. So, Suzanne, you know, before we learn all about you, I'm just so delighted. I was saying before we, we connected that this is the first opportunity I've had to be in your presence. But I've heard so many wonderful things about you.
What is coming across your desk this week that you want to share?
[00:06:05] Speaker C: Well, again, thank you so much for having me. And, and it's been great to meet you as well, because I've heard a lot of wonderful things about you too.
So I think I really resonate with what you just shared, actually what you both shared. So I, I do work with an executive coach, leadership coach, and, and that is just invaluable to me. So, yeah, thank you for that one because I think that is fantastic. But this week for me, I'm in Ottawa, so I'm here in the, in our offices here in ot.
Across my desk, the exciting news of last week is still resonating with the spring economic update. So that one is still one that we'll be continuing to learn more about.
There's a lot we, you know, we know there's a lot more that we don't know. So trying to navigate through that and also actively in the planning stages for the Canadian Olympic Committee sessions at the end of May. So as one of the co chairs for the summer caucus, we're charged with putting together the agenda and building that full Friday out for both the summer and winter caucuses. So we are in the final stages, I think, of aligning what that day is going to look like for all of our winter and summer colleagues. So that's on my desk. And also I have a Swimming Canada in person board meeting on Friday here in Ottawa. That's a full day board meeting.
So in my last preparation for that, all the documents went out last week for the board. But as I'm sure you can appreciate some fine tuning of messaging and just getting all my decks aligned before that meeting on Friday.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: Suzanne, I'm excited that you're here and I of course knew, being a former swimmer myself, knew a lot of your swimming background, but I'm very curious to learn how 20 years in the banking industry leads you to becoming the CEO of Swim Canada. So maybe before we get into the leadership type questions, you know, how did, how did you get here?
[00:08:10] Speaker C: How did I get here?
Well, a long and winding road, I would say my career in banking.
I think all of my career choices and where I landed were the results of interesting circumstances and coincidences. Out of university I ended up working for the federal government. I was an employment counselor working for the federal government.
And in 96, give or take, they did a big downsize. So I'd been in employment counselor took a package. I wasn't even like I was just 30 years old and figured while I'd been an employment counselor I could find a job.
My husband and I were going in for a mortgage, we wanted to sell our house. We went in for a mortgage and my banker said, oh, you're not working for the government, I think we're hiring. And so came out with a mortgage and a job out of the bank and so spent 20 years with the bank. But during that time with my kids, so they were, I was a swimmer as, as a young girl in, in Trenton, Ontario for the Trenton Dolphins.
And so when my kids were growing up and started swimming, it was just natural to, to bring them into the sport, into the competitive swimming because it was a big part of my life.
So they joined and I wasn't interested in sitting in the stands.
It just wasn't something where I wanted to be.
And so I started officiating, joined the club board the second year I had a swimmer, then was on the, the club board for 18 years, joined the Swim Ontario board and was on the Swim Ontario board for eight, was president of our club for eight years and then did the officiating. And so the officiating was a big part of my life.
And so when you think about your day to day job and what's paying the bills, the bank was paying the bills. But my passion and where I really spent every waking was involved in the sport of swimming from a leadership perspective at the club level, to the provincial level, to officiating. And so Fast forward to 2017. Ahmed at the time the CEO called me and said hey, I've got this job, what do you think?
And so I took the jump and left the bank after 20 years and joined Swimming Canada.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: What a great story. I mean people can't see you, but hopefully they can feel the way in which you're, you're sharing this. Your faith, you know, lit up and I think that that's where we, we really like the privilege for us is talking to, you know, incredible leaders who care so deeply about sport and have this passion for the way in which sport, when it's wielded with generosity and compassion and skill, can transform people in communities. And that's what it feels like you were tapping into, you know, your passion to give back in this way because this is the ecosystem in which your kids were, you know, playing in. Maybe speak a little bit more about. What is it about the giving back that felt so important to you as a. As not only a leader, but it feels like it was really connecting to maybe values that you hold as a. As a mom, as a. As a woman, as a human. Yeah.
[00:11:38] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. I would say it goes back to my parents. I often look back at, you know, how this swim mom from Brantford ended up to be the CEO of Swimming Canada. And it's. It's at times a head scratcher for me, at times. But I looked back to my parents and growing up, my parents, my dad was a high school teacher, high school football coach.
My mom was actively involved in our club. And I really think that they set me on the path to volunteerism and to giving back to my community because I saw them live that. I saw them live that daily in everything that they did. And the impact that my dad had as a high school football coach and years later, understanding the impact that that one person has on someone's life and the trajectory of their life and the impact that that single person can have is just extraordinary. And. And so I think I really look back to that. But I am very. A very values driven person.
And so all of that just aligns for me and within Swimming Canada. A lot of people will have heard me speak when we talk to our team after they've qualified for the Olympics in Paris. And I often talk about my why and my why are my kids and everything I do.
They're my center.
And because they were involved in the sport for so long, my why is them, but it's by extension all of their teammates.
And so when I'm speaking in a room to these Olympians, my kids swam with these kids. I've watched them grow up from being on deck to now being Olympians and also future leaders.
And I think that that is such a significant space. And I love that you spoke, Suzanne,
[00:13:37] Speaker B: about your values, and I love the metaphor you used of, you know, the passion started with your kids, and now everybody is one of your kids. But I wonder if you could extend a little bit about talking about your leadership style, how you've seen that lead to your success, and then maybe a story about how you've seen your leadership lead to a very rewarding experience.
[00:14:05] Speaker C: I would say for me, it's all about the people, and it has been throughout my career. So as a leader, whether it was in the financial industry, I was.
Have been a manager of people. And for me, I think when I, you know, I'm ready to retire, which, you know, is a couple years away, but not that far away.
I think the greatest legacy I leave is the people that have been developed and the people that have grown and developed through the work that we do, I do individually, but that we do collectively within Swimming Canada. And so I think understanding, you know, those leadership capabilities, we talk about those a lot. Within Swimming Canada. We have 10 core leadership capabilities that really help define the way that we work and the behaviors that we want to see.
And I think that through whether it was my career with, with bmo, whether it was the volunteer work through the swim team, as a neat manager, as a board member, it's always the people at the core. And that includes athletes, of course, as well. But if you're developing the people, the rest is happens. It, it just happens.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: That really speaks to me. It's interesting. When you were starting to talk about values, Steve knows that that's like my love language.
And I, I was thinking back when I was a master's student, I did a, my, my master's on management by values. This philosophy of management that really wasn't being talked about there was in sport. You know, when I looked at the design of the philosophy, the dominant philosophy, it was really management by objective.
You set these goals, you achieve these goals, and that's what you're focusing on, goal focused. And of course, the three of us know the reward system encourages us to move in that direction. We were so much more focused on what we were achieving, less on the how. And what is so inspiring. As I've been listening to different leaders and seeing some of the shifts that are being made inside the ecosystem, there's a lot more attention to the how. And of course, the three of us know that a lot of the how that's being uncovered has been focused on maltreatment. What happens when we aren't centering the human in the experience?
And by the human, I don't just mean the little athlete, right. Or the, the elite athlete. I'm also talking about the, the coaches and the officials and the fans and the leaders. Right. And the people who are supporting. When we center the person in the experience, we're asking different questions. So what do you need to feel safe, welcomed, like you belong. And what you were speaking to, Suzanne, is something I just wrote about a blog called Relational Coaching, Relational Leading. And this, this centering of the human in the experience requires a certain amount of courage, deep compassion and skill, because it isn't something that is, I would say, right now, entrenched in the ecosystem. We have to start measuring different things. So I'm curious, as someone who feels like you have this strong philosophy and you were using this philosophy in your leadership development in the banking industry, how is it that you are pragmatically and practically taking these values and baking them into the culture at Swimming Canada and by proxy, all the PTSOs and maybe the clubs that are supported by you?
[00:17:49] Speaker C: I think that's a great question. And it really, there was such a difference coming into sport in the leadership role versus in this corporate environment.
Because in the corporate environment, feedback is exceptionally rich.
The behaviors are. So you're assessed on the behaviors as much as the outcome. And so coming into sport, you didn't see that as much. You saw, you know, the outcome being the performance based on, you know, the athlete, but the performance based on the employees. It was different. And so how do we, how did we look at it? It was very deliberate. We brought in external resources to help with the work. And it was around leaders assessment and succession planning that we developed and built with external support these 10 leadership capabilities. And so you build these 10 leadership capabilities. That is everything from we put people first, we lead by example, we collaborate, we are trusted partners as examples, we grow talent.
And you have these, but then you can create them, but then you have to do something with them. You can't just say, here are 10 leadership capabilities. And so we were very deliberate as well.
When they were introduced, I would do an email once a month and I would introduce, here is the leadership capability. Here's what it means to me, here's how it shows up for me, and here's how it could show up for you.
Because the leadership capability isn't about just the leaders. It's about everyone in the organization.
And so then we took it a step forward. And these 10 leadership capabilities are now in every single performance review.
So they are assessed for every employee in every performance review.
And we are in year three of that being part of our performance review process.
The leadership capabilities are now also translating into our officials evaluations at national meets. So rather than just focus on the technical delivery on the deck for our officials, we're looking at, let's embed these leadership capabilities as they look like for an official on deck as part of the process as well.
I think it's been very deliberate, it's been very systematic and really important for us to live these consistently and see a path for growth and development for every person within the organization.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: It's really interesting, Suzanne, that you're pushing the boundaries of evaluation, of skill set, of learning, which is. Which is phenomenal.
I think we do have to think differently.
As Dina and I like to say, if we're all thinking, or Rachel used to say, if we're all thinking the same, then what's the point? So I love hearing about, you know, looking at things a little bit differently. I wonder if you could give us a tangible. Two tangibles, one where leadership was extremely rewarding to you, and then the opposite one that was completely challenging.
And how did that form you make you feel at the conclusion?
[00:21:14] Speaker C: Yeah, I was thinking about this question as I was, you know, getting ready for the. For our talk today. And I was looking at it from the, from the angle of when I had a leader. Not necessarily I was the leader, but impactful leaders that I have had.
And so one leader that really I was so lucky to have during my time, my last four years at bmo. And she showed that human side of being a leader in such a genuine way.
It was understanding the human side. It was building the relationship understanding of the person, not just the person at work, but the person that was left work at the end of the day.
She would give thank you cards, there would be praise, there would be gestures that made you feel seen as an employee. And I am a big card giver. I will give cards to staff all the time as thank yous or just an acknowledgement. And so that felt so true and authentic to me.
She was also one of the most dedicated and hardest working managers I have ever worked for.
So as an employee, you felt good about going above and beyond because you saw her doing it the same day in and day out.
Feedback then became such a rich feedback environment, both positive and constructive. And it was flowing in all directions, up, down, across. It was just part of the culture.
And I think, you know, when you think about that human side of management, she was the person who drove over two hours to attend my mom's funeral service. It was totally unexpected and she was there. She showed up. And I think it was just so genuinely her that it just really spoke to me as a person. And, you know, I was at the COC offices in Toronto for a meeting just a month ago, and we connected to her and I for a quick coffee Coffee break. And she continued to build me up as a leader all these years later, not being part of her team.
So I think her approach really helped define how I lead and how I want to show up with my team.
And it is about the feedback, it's about praise, it's about the thank you cards, and it's about finding out what makes your employee tick.
So what's important to them? And is it a gift card? You know, that love language and you know, what is important and what will resonate with them and showing up in a way that is meaningful to them as well.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: It's really inspiring, isn't it? Steve, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking back to when I was. When I was completing my master's, I kind of immersed myself in literature review.
And a lot of what you're speaking to now, I'm taking us back a moment because it was in 2010 when I completed my research.
Everything that you're speaking to is like these little checkbox around. Remember, you know, people aren't going to remember what you said or did. They're going to remember how you made them feel. So how do you want people to feel in your presence? Right. I think that's a beautiful thing that you're acknowledging the authenticity. So really leading by example, I think most of the younger people, I have three young adults now that are.
That are my children. And so they've been teaching me about authenticity. This generation in particular, they can smell when you're not being authentic.
Right. I see you nodding. So it's really important to, like, this is the audience. How do we, if we think of indigenous wisdom, how do we want to leave a legacy that actually reflects seven generations into the future? Right. It is on loan from. From them. Not. Not necessarily what we are entitled to. So I think that's another principle that you've spoken to.
You're. You haven't used the word, but this is what I'm feeling from you. Kindness, like taking the time to get to know people.
You noticing that when your mentor took the time to come to your mom's funeral, that. That actually really touched you because that's something that you would do for your people. Right. So kindness is really something that I'm appreciating about you. And then I love what you said because the literature will back you up on this. And this is reward what you want more of.
So how do you know what Susie wants? How does she want to be rewarded and recognized? Right. Differently than maybe what Joseph wants. So being really Thoughtful. Customizing the performance evaluation and compensation system to better reflect the unique nature of the people that were, as leaders here to serve. So I really appreciate everything that you've shared and maybe we'll complete with what's a piece of wisdom above and beyond everything that you've already shared here? What's the wisdom that you would like to impart on emerging leaders, the people that really that we're here to serve?
[00:26:24] Speaker C: Well, I think it, it goes back to values. And I think doing work on understanding your values and determining what are your two or three values and reevaluating them over time, because what my values were 20 years ago, they've shifted slightly. I, you know, they're the core is still more or less the same, but they can change. And I think once you have established your core values, they will guide you in how you lead, how you work, how you engage with others, how you make decisions.
They can all align to those core values. And if you understand your values and what is important, you can't go wrong with that. And so my two core values are courage and connection. Those are the two that are my big ones.
And I look to live those in every situation. So in every decision I have to make and every hard conversation I may need to have, in every celebration, those two guide me every day, in every interaction. And so I think that, you know, there has been so much talk and work on values, but I can't understate how important it is because I think there's is huge value in looking at your values.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: So, Steve, I have to jump in here on two levels and then you're going to take it away. The first is I felt this connection to you and now I know why. My three values that I curated about 25 years ago now, courage, compassion and community.
So it feels like when you walk the talk with respect to those values, when you've done the hard work of excavating them, then you know, your leadership, your humaning with others kind of shines through. So thank you for validating that. I do want to leave us on a little anecdote or story.
Debbie Muir and Mark Tewksbury, two people that are well known inside the swimming ecosystem. So I go way back with Mark in 1992 when he won the gold medal, I was there, I was a little media attache, right? My first Olympic Games. And he got out of the pool and, you know, I was walking beside him after he won the medal. And I remember being like starstruck, awestruck. And I said to him, like, and all These kids were swirling around him at the games, right?
And I said, like, aren't you afraid? You know, like the. It's just, it's the brand new medal. Your mom and dad haven't even held it yet. And he turned to me and he said, this isn't what really matters. It's what got me here that matters. And that, that I still can say after all of those years.
And you know, he speaks about him and Debbie created this leadership development that talked about leaders achievers or legacy leavers. And it seems to me, Suzanne, that a lot of what you're speaking to is that legacy leaving piece that really reflects and inspires how you are showing up as a leader. So, so grateful that we got to connect today. And I know Steve is going to bring it home with some of our, our, our fun little ditty at the end.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: Just the two of you were reminding me the time an Olympic gold medalist beat me by eight seconds. And I won't tell you the distance.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: That was the hard part.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Suzanne, this is the fun part of the podcast. So we're just gonna do a little bit of a rapid fire session. Don't think too much about the answers. Give us your initial impression.
But do you prefer salt water or Saltwater ocean or 50 meter pool?
[00:30:08] Speaker C: Oh, that's saltwater ocean.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: Are you an early morning or night
[00:30:13] Speaker B: owl CEO, early morning podcast music or silence music.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Great.
If you could, I love this question. If you could swap jobs for one day with any other sport leader, who would it be and why?
[00:30:34] Speaker C: Oh, that's hard.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: Remember, Suzanne, the rapid fire part of this.
[00:30:41] Speaker C: I know, I'm so sorry.
I mean, I immediately went to Bartlett to Michael Bartlett only because he and I work so closely together as, as co chairs of Summer Caucus and I love basketball.
And so I think that that is just the first one that came to. To mine.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: That's perfect. He was on our, on, on our show. We recorded a session with him last week. So there you go. I'm sure there's mutual fan admiration between the two of you. Fantastic.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Thanks Suzanne for your time today. We really appreciate you sharing your insights on swimming leadership, your journey to CEO Swim Canada, which is, which is not the normal path, but very cool path nonetheless.
Thank you again for your time today.
In the episode notes below, you'll find some Sport Law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. Thank you so much to our listeners. We are so grateful to share our vision of sportopia with you and to elevate sport.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: As always, to have your say in Sportopia. Email us@hellosportlaw CA to let us know what you want to hear about next.
Have a wonderful week and we look forward to connecting again soon. Until then, be well.
