Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, it's Steve Vindig at Sport Law.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Leave me a message.
[00:00:03] Speaker A: I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
[00:00:06] Speaker C: Hey, Steve, it's Dina. You aren't going to believe what just came across my desk. We need to chat. Give me a call.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Welcome to the latest episode of Sportopia. We're so excited to share our knowledge and have conversations about healthy human sport today.
[00:00:48] Speaker C: We're delighted to have launched a new series called Lessons on Leadership. We've had the privilege of connecting with incredible leaders over the past few years and thought it would be helpful to our listeners to learn from some of sport's most inspiring visionaries. In this episode, we welcome Lorraine lafreniere, the Chief Executive Officer at the Coaching association of Canada.
Lorraine really needs no introduction. She is a respected and compassionate sport leader with over 30 years of experience, including senior roles with Canoe, Kayak Canada, Cycling Canada, and the Canadian Olympic and Paralympic Committees.
Lorraine has led the CAC since 2013 and was most recently elected as the first woman to serve as president of the International Council for Coaching Excellence. Lorraine, welcome.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: And before we get started, because we have this little practice here at Sport Law and on Sportopia, Steve and Lorraine, you know this tradition of checking in with each other to see what we're focusing on. So, Steve, how about you go first? What's coming across your desk?
[00:01:54] Speaker B: As always, I just like to look at my schedule this week and see what conversations I'm having or what emails I have to respond to. And I'll talk about two things. One is the restructuring of an employment relationship or where we have sports, revamping their governance model, changing their titles, changing their reporting structures, changing their job descriptions, and so dealing with a few challenges related to restructuring.
And what also ties into that is accommodation. It's not really the file that I have right now is really not about an employment issue, but there are certain protections were provided under the Human Rights Code, which requires us as sport providers to accommodate to the point of undue hardship, where we have to make changes to accommodate somebody's reasonable request, up to a point of bona fide justification not to make that change. So where that line is, what that threshold is, it's a conversation, it's an analysis. So those are two things that I'm dealing with this week. Dina, what's going on with you?
[00:03:02] Speaker C: Well, first of all, all this legal ease. What do you mean by bonafide justification? Maybe educate us.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Well, if you have the disability of alcoholism, it's probably bonafide to say you Are you. You shouldn't be a truck driver or a bus driver.
So we have a point.
We as service providers, we have to accommodate. So can we do. What can we do to make sure somebody is successful? But it doesn't have to go beyond reasonableness. So like I said, if somebody does have a dependency issue, probably putting them as a bus driver is not the best scenario. And we would have legal, valid grounds to say, no, I'm sorry, you don't get to be the bus driver while you're dealing with this prohibited ground.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: Right, okay, thanks for that, Steve. Well, you know, what I'm focusing on is less legalese and more related to the human heart.
And yet it's so interesting. I find these days when I'm working with clients, a lot of it has to do with community and engagement, getting people to kind of share a worldview.
What I'm finding is even if they can look at the letter of the law, so I'm thinking recently I'm working with a client on engaging their community to help modernize their governance.
And what we notice around resistance, it has less to do with, let's call it the I's and the T's. It has everything to do with people not feeling engaged in the conversation.
So they don't want to be like, talked at or lectured or educated. They want to be engaged in the project of first understanding what are the changes and why are they necessary.
They don't want it to.
They don't want to feel like it's already happening, you know, that they're just being placated, if you will, or informed. They want to feel like they have voice and choice.
So interestingly enough, in this most recent project, it. It is the report, the modernization of their governance report happened two years ago.
And so it's just taken so long because they've been focusing on the tyranny of the immediate, you know, all these things that are like pressures to complete right away.
And this kind of stuff can feel like overwhelming and maybe not as important or as, you know, as a speedy requirement.
So with the governance code and with requirements now by Sport Canada to have some of these kind of governance essentials in place, what we're now seeing is nsos and msos having to demonstrate these basic fundamentals and being able to come back and remind the leaders that they can only move as fast as the people who have voted them in. Right. So that's some of what I'm focusing on. And I really have to say I enjoy those kind of like creating these timelines and these processes so that we can kind of meet people where they're at.
So having said that. So, Lorraine, we'd love to turn to you. And we know you're in, you're in the west coast, so you're bright and early this morning. So tell us what, what you're focusing on these days.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Well, bright and early always comes bright and early out in Vancouver. I usually try to stay in Ottawa time, so they wake up about 3 o' clock in the morning. I've already had a few international meetings, so that's all good. And here we are cutting together.
I think part of what listening to the two of you speak, I would really echo a lot of what you're saying and I still position it as Covid reverberations.
And I think people are still incredibly or even more so thin.
It's almost like they were meeting Covid head on in a lot of ways.
And then the trauma of being strong and, or resilient and or navigating Covid seems to be coming out more now.
So I would share in that thinking. I would say the stress that I see in the individuals around the organizations, plural in all functions is quite evident. And it really has put me in a position of trying to be even more intentional in how we move at our pace because it seems we can't move at the same pace right now.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, Lorraine, that really resonates. I remember, you know, because you and I have traveled together for, for a while now. Right. So you were in sport before I was. So it. And it's true, and maybe that's true of, of all of us, that when we look back we're like, but we could do this.
But it does feel, to your point, we had more time and space to get things done, to build relationships, to figure stuff out. It didn't feel like everything had to happen immediately. So I think your point about pace and the sustainability of pace in light of world occurrences and events and especially the aftermath of the pandemic, that does feel really true. Right. Because you, I mean, you're leading, you know, dozens of people under, under the cac so that I appreciate you being able to say that. So if we turn to, you know, your, your role as a leader, you know, what is the most rewarding part? We'd love to start there from a place of strength.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: Well, certainly the most rewarding thing for me is kind of the, the ability to create joy and accomplishment in the team.
And so I do feel work is meant to be joyful and creating an Environment where joy can be part of the work experience is really important to me. So I love the idea of being part of creating a culture that has a person leaving at the end of the day feeling great.
And I think that's the privilege of leadership.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: I want to go backwards, Lorraine. Like we've known each other a long time as well, but I don't know if I know you know you and I'm curious to know why sport? What brought you here? What motivated you to have such a long and successful career in sport? And then part B to that is, how do you think your leadership has changed over that time?
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Well, you're right, you wouldn't have known me way back when. But in fact, my sister Elyn, who I'm very close with, who's an incredible person and role model, worked in sport before I did. So she actually worked in 1985 at Badminton Canada.
And that was when I was really first exposed to the national sports system.
The truth of the matter is, and this is not necessarily how a lot of people come into sport, they usually come through a high performance pathway. Well, I came into sport as the best bench warmer there ever was.
And so my lens and filter on what sport means and what the experience should be is very different than that of an elite athlete who joins into the game.
And so I started in 1987 and I started at an organization that doesn't exist anymore called the Canadian Intramural Recreation Association.
And you know, I think I did about a year of my university degree and really didn't fit at Ottawa U and so went into the workforce starting in 87 and as a junior secretary making $11,500, I can still remember signing that agreement and, you know, finding the joy in actually creating sport for everyone, sport for all. It was intramural recreation at the time and it just just such a joy to contribute to that space. And so that's really how it started.
And then for your second question, so, gosh, leadership has evolved so much over time from the take charge in demand making decisions for everyone to facilitating the conversation to supporting the varying pathways of decision makings of the individuals around us with humanity. And so I think that's how it has evolved over time is it's gone from very much take charge to facilitate others and then to facilitate others with emotion and humanity. And so that's really how I would describe the journey of leadership transition for me.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: I love that story, Lorraine. So just so you can learn a little bit about me, I too started my career in intramurals. I did a sport management undergrad and we had to do an internship to graduate. And I ended up running the intramural program at Dalhousie University. So very small world.
You know, one of the questions that I continue to have, Lorraine, is again, this is close to my quarter.
Well, almost 25 years in the sector as a professional, let alone my athlete experience.
But always use this as an example. Twenty years ago, if somebody, a client asked for a policy suite, we would have said you need five.
And today I'd probably say you need 25.
So I'm curious to know what your thoughts are again, as the evolution of sport continues to change.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: Well, I think, yes, it is a more complex environment that we are all living in. It's not just sport. I think it's industry in general.
And it probably comes from a space where the complexity comes from a space where human engagement or interaction among people was not regulated enough. So it would be the behavior, the inappropriate behavior in the office space.
And it's made the pendulum swing, I think, too much, but I think in reaction to very lax terms and conditions of employees or employment. And so I think it's okay. I think it's a complex time. We see it with our, with our team and how they understand or don't understand policies and quite frankly, how they want the policy to fit them, not that they fit the policy. And so that is a real challenge in negotiation currently that we, we try to reflect on and have some capacity to listen. As you talked about in the opening, Steve, within reason, within the, within the boundaries of the organizational organization's culture, capacity, resources and integrity.
[00:14:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I can see that it is challenging, Lorraine, because maybe now, more so than any time in the past, you're leading multi generations and that worldview clash that you're speaking to is real. It's not like theoretical. I'm sure that you have examples of you as someone who we know can see and hold multiple perspectives.
It like, what is something that you do to build that alignment between maybe these clashes and worldviews that you have to navigate?
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Well, the first thing I do is entrust that to younger generations and not to me, because you're right, we all have different worldviews. And my experience and your experience in the job market when, well, first when I came in anyway, was how hard can you work me and how little can you pay me?
And that is not the case now. It's actually quite the opposite. And so I actually quite admire the current generations.
I feel like, you know, there's that old ADAGE of every generation is critical of the one that follows. Well, my heart is so not there.
My head and my heart are in a place where we have to listen and understand what's meaningful to individuals, to come into a place and have joy. So it does come back to that original conversation.
Are there tensions? Absolutely. Do we get it right all the time? Never. You know, we get it right I don't know how many percentages of the time. And for some people, we get it right more, and for other people, we don't get it right. Right. So it's. It's living in that space. So there's a real shift in living in what I would call ambiguity around certain workplace cultural issues.
But the sign of success for me is when people can bring their true self into the office. And so that's really what we try to find space for, is so that individuals actually come in and I look for visual cues. I will look for either a picture or somebody who doesn't want to have a picture or just the artifacts that they put around them that creates that environment for them. And those are the cues that make a difference for me.
That along with a very high.
We have a high priority on people first in the organization because it is what we want to model for our coaches.
And so that means that we have a policy that allows the CEO to make compassionate decisions. Okay. So if a person's parent is passing away, we extend all kinds of compassionate decision making around that for the person to come forward and say, here's what I need now.
And so we've. We've exercised that on many occasions on different environments. And I think that's right. I think that's what people want to see, is they want to see that compassion.
[00:17:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I can. I can feel that. And then the research supports that shift in leadership. Right. And I think one of the tensions that you're pointing to, Lorraine, is there are sometimes myths around being. It's either you have to be compassionate or humanistic in your leadership style, or command and control.
And what you're demonstrating and speaking to is there space to hold both that at times, depending on the situation, we need to come in with decisiveness and less collaborative methods, because that's what the situation is asking for. But for the most part, if you can bake into your culture as you were sharing a humanistic kind of approach, then you foster trust and you allow the policies and the guidelines to be more flexible to meet the situation.
So I really appreciate that. And, you know, when I did my master's on Management by values. This is taking us back a moment, but that's exactly what we are looking for, right? The tangible ways that allows us to be flexible based on the human needs and what is realistic. Right. What's legal.
So really appreciate that.
Fun fact. I love learning about people that I care about. So it's interesting that the three of us around intramurals. So my experience with intramurals is I went from being Lorraine's bench warmer because if there's the truth around that, I was never the best athlete, but I always was like part of the leadership team.
And my intramural beginnings was me and my best friend at the time, before I met you, Steve, my best buddy. We were the, you know, the female and the male intramural directors. And I ended up going to a camp called Camp Kucha Ching.
And that's where my leadership skills were honed. And I realized that I didn't have to be the best person on the court.
So I had to define, well, what is my contribution to the team?
And that's what I'm hearing in you, Lorraine. It's like knowing yourself, being really self aware actually creates a space for other people to do the same.
So we'd love to know, you know, what's the peak leadership experience that aligns with your values and defines your leadership approach? Maybe take us back to a story that really still reverberates and we know you have so many, but is there one that kind of stands out that really aligns with a value that matters to you?
[00:20:24] Speaker A: Well, I guess it, you know, I think everybody is going to reference Covid for a long time still, and I would probably do the same. So the ability to care for the individuals in the organization through Covid was for sure an important aspect of checking in, making sure everyone was okay and supporting them through that time in a way that was reasonable for them. So we know that women left the workforce in droves during COVID because they were the ones who stayed home and had to take care of their kids. So what did that mean? Well, that meant that I didn't want to have women leaving the workforce.
So I set up a time, set it up with our staff that people could actually block the hours that they could work in their calendar and if they needed to carry over days where they didn't work into a future state that so be it. That was absolutely fine. So we tried to create all kinds of strategies to help our team.
And that was not just limited to the women, but we know generally, statistically where that falls and so it was examples like, okay, it's no problem. If you're going to have your child with you during X hours, then no problem. Let's define what works for you. And of course we, we institutionalized it in the sense that it was tracked and followed. We did a lot of other things that, you know, of caring, of financial support, of consideration. We brought in comedians online.
We did a lot of things just to try to help our team get through that time. And I, I feel like that's the gift of, of being in the position that I'm in. It really is, it is such a gift. I, I never take it for granted. I try to live by what I would love to have experienced when I was younger.
And I, I'm so cognizant that I am creating and I am part of creating, just as they are their work experience.
And so I, you know, I hold in my heart that there is 36, 37 people in the organization. And I, I play a role in helping them in their work experience.
And that means a lot to me. And I really try to focus on what should that look like so that when people leave, they leave because they need to grow, which is always an important step for individuals. But they, in their heart and in their minds, they carry some of CAC with them.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: I want to play devil's advocate a bit, Lorraine. You know, obviously at the beginning of today's podcast, I talked about accommodation and reasonableness and making changes. And that sounds amazing. You created an amazing work environment for your staff. And like you said, if they leave here and say, that was a great experience and I'll never forget it, but you have a lot to do at cac. There's a lot on your shoulders. There's a lot from the expectations from the community grassroots all the way to elite coaching.
You have to get stuff done.
So how does that intermingle?
[00:23:52] Speaker A: Well, it intermingles with compassion first, performance second.
So. And in fact, the more compassion, the more performance. And so I will tell you, I find people work too hard.
And so my conversations are usually more about, okay, how are we going to navigate this so you're not fried at a certain time? So an example would be years ago for the months of July and August, it was seven to seven. I don't care what time zone you're in, seven to seven. There are no emails before or after unless there's an emergency. Well, now everybody has that policy, the right to disconnect policy.
And so I think we need to do it. But you are right, the tension around back to work is a very real tension that is in the organization. So what do I mean by that? Well, we're three days a week in the office. If you're traveling for a day like this would be counting as my day in the office. If you're traveling. Okay, so three days a week. There are two mandatory days in a month. The first one is the all staff meeting, and the second one is actually the RA center has a social meeting.
And I want everyone to come in for that. Because, Dina, the friendship that we have is because we were in a building together and we created connections and communities and that's what sport is about.
And so my intention is to live that I give the opportunity for a month away to travel and work remotely if you want. There's all kinds of considerations around it.
But I would say there is a space of tension, Steve, and that is what Dina was talking about earlier in that there is a lot of space and time for the compassion and the caring. But then there are some business decisions that are important to protect and uphold because it is about performance. And that would be an area where I would say that's where I feel some of the tension.
[00:25:59] Speaker C: So, Lorraine, do you find. So that's so helpful? And I suspect that people that are up and comers, you know, that are maybe newer to their leadership experience, are listening to you. And okay, it's not just me, right?
So what do you find most challenging right now? And maybe, maybe you have capacity, you have experience and wisdom and you have this philosophy of management that is supporting you. What are you noticing is like, if you look at your other colleagues that are in similar CEO executives positions, what might be a general trend that, that you feel is contributing to maybe unnecessary suffering in and amongst leaders or the cultures that they're helping to nurture. Do you have a sense of what
[00:26:48] Speaker A: if you had a magic wand?
Yeah. No. I think the financial pressures of in young, young professionals is having a significant impact across the sports sector and across many sectors. And I think it's impacting leadership worries. So I have that conversation all the time. And we, within our limited resources, try to identify ways that we can help our staff in this space within reason and within our mandate and within the appropriate financial resources.
So that's what I would notice is that there's this inordinate pressure on individuals and organizations and it includes HR pressures that CEOs are seeing right now across their employees. And I mean, the financial pressures, the stress we're feeling south of the border, the tensions that are going on around the world, the. The ability for young people to get excited about their futures and their future careers. You know, I. I think we're going through a pretty hard time, and I would suggest most of my conversations with our colleagues. Dina. Would be that they feel that, too.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Maybe that's a good segue. Lorraine.
You know, we get a lot of phone calls from young lawyers, young strategists who want to get into the business. And. And, you know, there's only so many spots and so much work to do. So I do spend a lot of time, because I remember 23, 25 years ago, trying to get into the sector and the challenges that I had.
So I like to spend time with people who are graduating or close to graduation to give them suggestions on how to get into the industry. I wonder what advice you have for emerging leaders, people trying to get into the sector.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: So I always hold time for that, too. Steve. I think that's how we pay it forward, because we all had great people behind us who gave us those efforts. Frank Ratcliffe being one. Dina. The late, great Frank Radcliffe, who I have so much time for still in my heart.
I really think it is about taking opportunity in unconventional ways.
And so the research is very clear. If you take the bus at the same time, if you go to the same restaurant, if you have the same structure in your day, your world is more limited. You are not exposed to different experiences. If you shake things up, if you find different coffee shops to go to, if you walk into different volunteer opportunities, if you, you know, that is truly what gives individuals the opportunity. And I like to share the way. I kind of looked at the leadership journey, which is you threw the strands of the DNA. And so think, okay, there's two strands. I've added a third. It's my creative license. And so one is my personal line. And it's my. My strand through time, where I was born, what the things are that are meaningful for me. My family, my children, my, you know, my life experiences, my travel, my music.
The second strand is community service. And I think that's a huge space for young people to reflect upon.
It gives back so much in spades, it's unbelievable. But I have another strand, which is my community service, and then I have another strand that's my professional line of career. And they intertwine and they come together to create the whole person, the holistic person. And so I would encourage young people not to think dimensionally only through their education, but to think through their whole self and everything that they do as they try to come into sport, because that's what sport is about. It's all about experiences.
[00:30:51] Speaker C: Well, as we wind down our time together. Lorraine, our last question has to do with women in sport. And if there's one person, I mean, there are a few, of course, that have championed women in sport, but you are one of them who has. Especially when we think about women in coaching and the gigantic strides that have been made to try and create a welcoming, safe environment for women to thrive at all levels.
When we think of women breaking barriers in the Canadian sport landscape, it feels like you have been one of the. The people that have been consistently modeling that as an executive and then supporting that as a femtor.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:38] Speaker C: Someone who's trying to encourage other young women to come up. And you spoke about that in terms of the culture you're trying to create and invest in. And we hear, right, your servant leadership approach, what is it that I, Lorraine, can do to support you in accessing joy through work? So those are all kind of things that you've shared with us.
So I'm wondering, in terms of how do we ensure that the system, the rules, the policies, the procedures, the cultures that may not be within your control, what are ways that you feel that we can continue to advance to ensure that more women, people of color, are feeling welcomed inside an ecosystem that is still not quite there yet?
[00:32:27] Speaker A: Well, first, we're going to make mistakes. So 10 years ago, well, maybe not 10, maybe five, six, I don't know. The years are merging together. Dina I looked at the makeup of CAC of its staff, and I thought we, we are not representative of who is in Canada and that needs to change. And so we went about very intentionally creating interview policies and announcement of job opportunities in ways that attracted diverse peoples in Canada, new Canadians as well. So I'm proud to say we've given many people their first job in Canada and the diversity of the organization is very different. But in doing that, we made mistakes along the way. It's hard to be the first person in one of those spaces.
We have to know that we have to understand that people don't understand the unwritten culture.
And so we take it for granted. And we live a history with people that we've worked for a long time with. And there's so many unwritten things in that it really needs to be redirected to be more clear. And so that's where we've spent a fair bit of time. And so I'm very proud of CAC. Today we have more than 17 languages spoken in our organization, on our website, you'll see everybody's language that they speak. You know, our board has been 60, 40 minimum for since 2014.
Our staff, it's the same thing. It's a very, very intentional creation of opportunities for people.
So that is one starfish at a time, right? You just talked about the big system and how the big system isn't there necessarily. But if there's a bunch of people like you and I and Steve who intentionally create those spaces, then that does seep into the bigger system at some point in time, and it does get better.
And so it's really just about intention. It's about thinking during COVID about women having to care for their kids and maybe not being in that space and saying, okay, what am I going to do? It's about the female coach I worked with who had a baby and needed to come with her mom and her baby to training camps. Okay, let's make that work. And to your point, Dina, there was no Sport Canada design around how funds could be used for in that way. So. So we just did it.
So it is about creating those spaces and opportunities. And, And. And you and I have experienced such a change over time anyway. It's really lovely, you know, and so that's.
That's just, I think, one starfish at a time.
[00:35:18] Speaker B: A lot of heavy. A lot of heavy conversation. Lorraine. We're gonna. We're gonna make it really simple right now. This is the last, last round, and then you can. You can go back to your. Your day job.
We're gonna do a little rapid fire, so don't think too hard. Dean and I will. Will banter back and forth, but I'll start off with. What's your favorite food?
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Oh, I want to say a steak and a Caesar salad.
[00:35:45] Speaker C: Meat's back on the menu. I love that.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: I know. I tried not to do it too much.
[00:35:51] Speaker C: Me too.
What's your favorite ritual?
[00:35:55] Speaker A: Oh, I wake up now at about. I like waking up before my alarm goes off in the morning, so that's usually about 4:45. And it gives me my first sense of victory about my day that I woke up before my alarm told me I had to get out of bed. It's my. I'm not sure what that's about, but it really gives me a lot of joy.
I. Then I try to sit there and think of some gratitude, lie there and think of some gratitude. And then I make myself a latte, and I feel like the world is asleep and I'm sitting on my couch and I Feel a lot of joy in that.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Well, that, that segues well. Lorraine, favorite movie?
[00:36:36] Speaker A: Well, you know, I did look at this question, and I'm going to give you three. Okay. And because it ties to my mom. My mom passed away last year on my birthday, so it was a real heavy day. And she lived a beautiful 96 years and. And I'm still recovering, so I'll tell you. My mother, who was very conservative, I'm the youngest of seven kids, took me to three pivotal movies in my life. And I, for the life of me, every time she took me to these movies, I was thinking it's such a disconnect from her as a conservative person. But she took me to Blue Lagoon as a young teenager. She took me to see the Name of the Rose in this old theater in Montreal when we were waiting for a train, and she took me to see To Live and Die in la.
So three movies that were quite avant garde at their time. And so that's just a node to my mum.
[00:37:29] Speaker C: I love that. I think that's really beautiful. Thank you. Lorraine, last question. What's your favorite hobby? Now? I have a sense of what that might be, but what's your favorite hobby?
[00:37:39] Speaker A: I. I mean, I. I'm not sure. It's. I feel like work has become my hobby between the two jobs, if I'm being really honest.
You know, I really love walking these days. I know that sounds crazy, but for some reason it has just been like this inn. Sense of joy. This past summer, I made a commitment to walk a minimum 50km every week for the summer months. So I did it and it was really good and it was just very therapeutic. And, you know, as you get older, you. You have to kind of change your fitness. And so that was the. That's my, that would be my, my answer for now.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: Okay. And we, we reserve to change that, you know, when we have you back on next year.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:23] Speaker C: I love that, you know, if there's. There's a word that in our closing comments here, if there's a word that really jumped out at me. Steve and Lorraine, in terms of the theme, it's joy. And I love that, like, I can feel my heart expand and just having this privileged conversation. Lorraine. You know, I think it's really quite special when you've traveled with someone. Even though, you know, our roads haven't been like, super tight over the last, let's say, you know, since before the pandemic.
It's still really special, I think, to connect with someone and to learn something new about them. That maybe you didn't know before. And then to feel that sense of purpose in how they're living their best life through their vocational work and that thread of joy and the impact that it has, like, we feel it, Steve and I, in this conversation.
So we're really grateful that you've spent your time with us this morning and that you continue to serve inside a sports system that is really making a difference. Because in the end, when we have leaders like you who are making a difference, then hope becomes possible.
[00:39:33] Speaker A: Right?
[00:39:34] Speaker C: So thank you so much, Lorraine, for your service.
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: Yeah, quickly too, Lorraine. I just want to, you know, when we do these podcasts, we, most of the time when we communicate, it's professional or you need something or we need something. And, and it's really nice to get to know you. And the word that I'll use for you is probably, I didn't necessarily know was the level of passion that you still have for what you do in sports. So really motivating to see that after your short slash long career, but really, really, really cool to see that. So thank you for your time today. We really appreciate it. In the episode notes below, you'll find some sport law blogs where you can find more information related to our conversation today. Thank you so much to our listeners. We are so GR to share our vision of Sportopia with you and to elevate sport.
[00:40:25] Speaker C: As always, to have your say in Sportopia. Email us@helloportlaw CA to let us know what you want to hear from next. Have a wonderful week and we look forward to connecting with you in the future. Be well.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: It.
